Engine sitting too low?? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 12, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
 
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Engine sitting too low??

I have a 69 Camaro with a 350/TH350 setup with factory A/C. When I purchased the car it had a small flex fan installed and the car would overheat. I purchased the correct 18" clutch style fan and tried installing it, but it rubs on the bottom of the fan shroud. (Now i see the reason for the undersize flex fan) Radiator support, radiator & shroud are all correct for the car and look to be in the proper location. Frame is not bent or rusted out. According to the CRG they had different Frame and Engine mounts for the 302 & 350 engines as compared to the 307 & 327. I guess i'm thinking that I have the 307/327 mounts with a 350 and the engine is sitting too low. It appears that I need to raise the engine about an 1" to center the fan in the shroud. Any ideas or experience with this? 1" seeme like a lot to be off by.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 12, 11:40 PM
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Ed
 
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Re: Engine sitting too low??

Good place to start by looking at motor mounts and frame stands. But if you're off by an inch I would look at the rear crossmember and the tranny mount. There are different hieght tranny mounts and you're right, off by an inch I doubt you'd get all that w/ miss matched motor mounts/stands. Original tranny mounts were fairly short, but most the replacements are taller
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 12, 11:51 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Engine sitting too low??

Take a good look at your mounts like you mentioned. If there is ANY space between the ears of the motor mounts and the sides of the frame stands (where the bolt passes through) then you've got short 327 engine mounts on short 350 frame stands. Correct engine mount for 350 frame stands would be Anchor 2283. The last time I bought some the manufacturer's applications were wrong so all the parts stores were wrong and the 2283 was only listed for the 302 and 396. If you asked for 350 mounts you'd get 327 mounts. I know from experience that the mismatch will cost you at least a half inch at the crossmember (bought a mismatched car). Do the trigonometry and it's more at the fan.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 12, 05:04 AM
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Kevin
 
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Re: Engine sitting too low??

The difference between the low-po stands and the 350-302 stands is less than 1/2" And you have to have the correct motor mounts to match. It sounds like you have a stand/motor mount mismatch.

Read this and take a close look at your stands and mounts http://www.camaros.org/engine.shtml#EngineMounting

Kevin


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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 12, 08:37 AM
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Bobby
 
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Re: Engine sitting too low??

Some more motor mount info:
http://www.pozziracing.com/camaro_engine.htm

67 Camaro 350
M20 4spd console,
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 12, 09:51 AM
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Smile Re: Engine sitting too low??

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
The difference between the low-po stands and the 350-302 stands is less than 1/2" And you have to have the correct motor mounts to match. It sounds like you have a stand/motor mount mismatch. [/url]
The difference in combined height of the engine mounts and frame stands is 1/8" on the right and 1/16" on the left. This is at a 45 angle so your vertical height is 1/2 of that. That would mean your max engine height is 1/16" higher !

It is ALMOST impossible to mismatch frame mounts and engine mounts. You have to modify (elongate holes) and add spacers etc.

It is most likely your transmission mount. If you raise the tail of the transmission it will Lower your engine fan. If you lower the tail of the transmission it will raise your engine fan.

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 12, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Engine sitting too low??

Thank You everyone for the detailed information. It would appear that Steiner is correct. I do indeed have the short 327 engine mounts on short 350 frame stands. I ordered a pair of the Anchor 2283 engine mounts. I will update with the results after I install them. Thanks again.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 12, 08:37 PM
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Tom
 
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Smile Re: Engine sitting too low??

Just a word of caution... The new engine mounts will probably not solve everything. Make sure that the holes in the frame stands are not elongated too badly. Maybe you will get lucky and the mounts will be the cure all.

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 15th, 12, 05:06 AM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Engine sitting too low??

Per David Pozzi's info:

SMALL BLOCK FRAME BRACKETS AND MOTOR MOUNTS

The total height for a 69 Z/28 and high performance mount and frame bracket is:

LH 3 5/8"

RH 3 3/4"

69 motor mount thickness: 2 1/8". (subtract this from above to get frame bracket height).



The total height for A 67/68/69 low performance frame bracket and motor mount is:

Also 67/68 high perf

LH 3 11/16"

RH 3 15/16"

67-68 V8 all, and 69 low perf motor mount: 1 5/8" thick. (subtract this from above to get frame bracket height)



So doing the math using just the left hand info:
hi po frame stand = 1.5"
hi po engine mount = 2.125"

lo po frame stand = 2.0625"
lo po engine mount = 1.625"

hi po frame stand + hi po engine mount = 3.625"
hi po frame stand + lo po engine mount = 3.125"
So, a half inch on that side.

Just from experience, I had a stock oil pan on a 350 car that was sitting on the crossmember with the wrong combo but never noticed. Replaced the pan with a seven quart pan that was supposed to be stock profile on the front and the engine wouldn't go back in.....get one bolt in and the other side was off by so much the mount ears were barely on the frame stand. Installed the correct 2283 mounts and I could slide my fingers between the pan and crossmember. Later put the Dart block and Milodon pan in using the same engine mounts and it was also the same, actually more clearance.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 15th, 12, 09:52 AM
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Steiner... Steiner... Steiner...

Yes, you forgot a couple of important factor's. The heights are all at 45. The frame stands are not being changed so you leave them out of your math. The difference in height is the difference between the "tall and narrow" and the "short and wide" engine mounts. This is 1/2" at a 45 angle which = 1/4" in vertical height.

Now, as you have said the "short and wide" engine mounts will not physically bolt between the 302/350 mounts as the distance between the thru bolt holes of the frame stands does not match the thru bolt holes of the engine mounts. Depending on how they oblonged out the holes in the 302/350 stands is really going to determine how much the engine will be raised. The OP said that he needed the fan to be 1" higher. I only see 1/4" to 1/2" at the mounts. Hopefully that 1/4" to1/2" at the mounts, with the transmission mount at it's original height, will make enough of an angle to raise the FAN enough to clear.

If it does not, then lower your tranmission mount by using a thinner mount.

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 15th, 12, 02:03 PM
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Re: Engine sitting too low??

Could the previous owner have installed lowered body mount bushings??
I have heard that using those can cause the fan to hit the top of the shroud.

1969 Camaro SS, 350(NOM), M21, 12 Bolt Posi, 01B LOS Build
1977 Camaro, 350(LM1), M20, 10 Bolt Posi, Purchased New, (SOLD)
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 23rd, 12, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Engine sitting too low??

Ok, Changed the motor mounts today. Much, Much Better. Fan is almost perfectly centered top to bottom but now is slightly offset to the passengers side. Its not enough to sweat over but perhaps I can push the tranny over a bit to correct this. Thanks again for all the information on the mounts.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 24th, 12, 09:36 AM
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Tom
 
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Smile Re: Engine sitting too low??

Good to hear that you were able to get it fixed with just the engine mounts. The 302/350 frame stands (mounts) are the engine is not perfectly centered. The math says it should be about an 1/8" offset to the passenger side. Mine measures as 3/16" offset from center. (I rechecked my measurements). The 307/327 frame stands are also different heights and will give you about 1/16" offset to the passenger side. The transmission mount for small blocks is centered.

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1

Last edited by TJS69; Sep 24th, 12 at 12:19 PM.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 24th, 12, 12:11 PM
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Re: Engine sitting too low??

When its all said and done be sure to check your engine and tranny angle. They should be 4 degrees as I recall to keep the ujoints from wearing out and reduce vibration.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Sep 24th, 12, 01:37 PM
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Re: Engine sitting too low??

Also, make sure the fan doesn't hit the shroud at engine torque over under WOT...

67 Camaro: 454/TH400/4.10 12 bolt. Lots of options: PS/PDB/PW, tilt, tach, gauges and more. K-K + 797-Z...

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