Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it... - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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Robert
 
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Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

Hey all. I am trying to start my 383 for the first time in the car. It has run before on the engine dyno, and nothing has changed since that time save for the oil pan/pump, but on the dyno it ran with an electric fuel pump.

I have a Carter fuel pump - I believe it may be one of their marine models due to the funky threads on the intake and supply. I bought some NPT to AN adapters and made my own AN hoses for the whole shebang.

I had to clock it over to clear the crossmember - it's a pretty big manly pump and I now have the inlet/outlet as pictured below (forgive the dust):





It doesn't seem to be pumping. With my finger over the inlet hose while cranking the engine, I feel no suction. Is there anything I should try before taking the thing off?

Thanks,

Robert

67 SS under construction
10:1 383, TKO600, Moser 4.11 12 bolt, Hotchkis, Rushforths, Flaming River, etc.
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 01:18 PM
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Mark
 
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

Does it have a fuel pump rod to the cam? If it does and it's not sucking or pushing fuel I'd say the diaphragm is shot and you need a new pump.

Mark 70 Z28 M22 3.73 Z21 Z87 - Lunati 20120121 Roller Cam

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 01:21 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

It does have the rod; I went through the fuel pump mounting gymnastics holding the rod up to install the pump after clocking it.

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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 01:28 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

It takes a looooong time of cranking sometimes if the fuel line was dry. I have had to suck start one of those type pumps before to prime it after the car sat for a long time.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

I thought it might have to be primed, but everything I've read on it claims that it does not. I pulled the pump anyway and verified the rod moves smoothly; if I put the actuator lever on the bench and push down on the pump assembly to activate it, I can hear the bellows working and feel suction on the inlet, which is even more confusing.

67 SS under construction
10:1 383, TKO600, Moser 4.11 12 bolt, Hotchkis, Rushforths, Flaming River, etc.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

hmm. With the pump off the engine but connected to the supply lines I manually actuated the pump and spit fuel across the shop. So the pump is working; why would it not actuate while on the engine? Admittedly I don't know much about the block - it's a 3970010 rebuilt by a very reputable local shop - could the rod be incorrect? It doesn't look bent or bothered; it moves freely.

Robert

67 SS under construction
10:1 383, TKO600, Moser 4.11 12 bolt, Hotchkis, Rushforths, Flaming River, etc.
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 02:34 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

There is a bolt hole on the front side of the block that goes into the fuel pump cavity. Typically it'll have a very short bolt in it to plug the hole. If you take that bolt out and put a long one in it, you can push the pump rod all the way back and then use the bolt to hold it out of the way. Then the pump can be installed. It is possible to put the pump on and get it to bolt down with the arm on top of the rod instead of against the tip of it if this is not done. Don't forget to remove the long bolt and install the short one afterward. Looking at the top of your pump, it does appear that there is a larger gap there than on the side which would indicate bolting the pump up with the arm on top of the rod did happen, but it may just be my eyes.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

OK I took it apart and reassembled the base plate, rod, and fuel pump. I'm now pumping fuel, thanks for the help. The carb bowls are full and it's trying to start, but only just slightly. Maybe I should start a new thread on that matter, but I have spark(MSD 6AL) and fuel, carb ran the engine on the dyno and hasn't been changed other than raised idle a little bit to see if that would help get her going.

This is my first SBC - my prior experience is a lot of Datsun L6 motors. If the Internet is to be believed, the screw on the driver's side of the distributor is between #2 and #7 terminals, correct? Then that would make the one to the left (counterclockwise) of #2 the #1 cylinder, and going clockwise from #1 are:

1-2-7-5-6-3-4-8

Is this right?

67 SS under construction
10:1 383, TKO600, Moser 4.11 12 bolt, Hotchkis, Rushforths, Flaming River, etc.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 03:49 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

That order would be counter clockwise...which is to the right. It only runs that way if you're in reverse.
Kidding.
Clockwise is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.
I think you might've just mistyped what you're thinking.

Was that distributor in the engine when dynoed?
Where's your MSD power coming from, both small red wire and large red wire?

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

Hahaha, thanks Steiner, I appreciate your replies.

The distributor was in the car when dynoed. To get the engine in the car, I had to pull off the cap and rotor, but put them back on the way they were. In addition, I believe somewhere between buying the 6AL and my engine builder returning the thing to me, the HEI cap must have disappeared, because it came back to me with an MSD "window" cap. I figured maybe that's what they used at the machine shop and I now have their cap. I have since replaced the cap with an MSD HEI style male cap.

The MSD box is mounted on my radiator support, driver's side. The large red wire is fed from a positive distribution block, large black from a ground distribution block, and small red from +12V ignition source on the American Autowire harness. I followed the MSD troubleshooting process of shorting together the distributor leads, and it's working. When turning the car over and the coil held to ground, it fires fine.

I am not sure if I have the plug wires correct, really. Which one is #1? In my current config it is the forward-most terminal:



Robert

67 SS under construction
10:1 383, TKO600, Moser 4.11 12 bolt, Hotchkis, Rushforths, Flaming River, etc.
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 05:11 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

Best way to find #1 (for me) without pulling the valve cover is this method...
Use a 5/8" socket and breaker bar to rotate the engine by the bolt in the crankshaft.
Watch the 0 mark on the balancer come around and stop when the mark is a couple inches from your timing tab.
Now pull out the #1 spark plug.
Stand on the left side of the car, put your right thumb over the plug hole, and use your left hand to pull the breaker bar towards you and the 0 mark towards the timing tab.
If you feel compression building against your thumb that blows off when you release, then you're coming to TDC on #1.
If you don't, then you're coming to TDC on #6.
Go ahead and line up the 0 mark on the balancer with about the 12 degree BTDC mark on the timing tab as that should be around where they set initial.

Regardless of where it's at you can now check your plug post numbers by pulling off the cap and seeing what post the rotor is at.
If you had compression, the post the rotor is at is your #1 so wire from there.
If there was no compression, the post the rotor is at is your #6 so wire from there using your firing order.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

Got it...

Vroom! Video in my build thread.

67 SS under construction
10:1 383, TKO600, Moser 4.11 12 bolt, Hotchkis, Rushforths, Flaming River, etc.
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 05:14 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

Oh yeah, on other thing I notice in your pic is the vacuum line coming off the back of the carb. Does that breather in the passenger side valve cover have a PCV valve in it, and does the other side of the T go to the brake booster?

If that's not what is going on then it'll be a huge vacuum leak and the car will be very hard to start and if it does catch it'll run up and then shut off most likely.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 05:35 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wazoo151 View Post
Got it...

Vroom! Video in my build thread.

Nice! Twenty bucks says this guy doesn't even get the hood on before the first burn out.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old May 17th, 14, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Fuel pump bad? Before I pull it...

I found #1 in a very unscientific method. I took the plug wires and, leaving them connected to the plugs, rotated them around the cap. I figured that the firing order was right, but #1 was wrong. Heck, I thought that at worst it would take 7 tries to rotate the whole deal around the distributor. After try #5 the battery was running low and I thought "crap, I might just get one more try." So on try #6 it roared to life, open headers and all. It took 8 years to get to this point, and I let out a redneck YAHOOOOOOOOOO!

So it now starts on one crank and idles nicely.

Yes, the passenger side breather is a Billet Specialties PCV breather. The other side goes to the brake booster.

67 SS under construction
10:1 383, TKO600, Moser 4.11 12 bolt, Hotchkis, Rushforths, Flaming River, etc.
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