67 HEI big block will not run - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 5th, 14, 09:37 PM Thread Starter
Tim
 
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67 HEI big block will not run

This is going to be a little long winded but I'm having lots of trouble with this camaro. First a rundown of information.




1967 camaro rs/SS

454 big block

New summit racing HEI distributor

New Holley 750 carb

New Taylor wires

New AC Delco 44 plugs gapped .045

Car started to run sluggish so the carb was swapped out for a used Holley. After a short drive the motor shut down. Car was towed and someone pulled out the distributor.

After that, I set the #1 piston to TDC on compression stroke using finger over spark plug hole method. Then I set the mark on the balancer to 12 degrees BTDC. I set the new summit distributor in with the rotor pointing at #1 tower on the cap. Cranked it and it did not start.

I re set the base timing a few more times using 8 degrees and even 0 and nothing. Noticed a strong odor of fuel. Lots of fuel in the cylinders. Changed spark plugs. Let it sit and squirted a bit of oil in spark plug holes to try and get oil back in the rings. This time I got it to fire but it would only start and run with my foot to the floor and very very rough. I came to the conclusion that the used carb that was put on must have been dumping lots of fuel inside the motor washing it out. New Holley carb installed.

There are two marks on the balancer, one is machined the other is from a paint pen. I tried setting base timing to both marks with no luck. Every time I find TDC on the compression stroke, the machined mark is near the key on the timing chain cover so I believe that mark is good.

If the car sits for a bit and you crank it, it sounds like it fires on one cylinder one time and then continues to crank.

The plugs are probably fuel fouled again because they were changed before the new carb went on. Tomorrow I am going to do compression and leak down tests and change plugs again.

I feel either the plugs are no good or I am somehow not getting the base timing correct. Any input?
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 14, 11:03 AM
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John
 
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

Did you just complete a points type distributor to HEI swap? Not trying to be over simplistic, but did you confirm you have a spark? After you know you have a spark I would make sure the distributor is not 180 out. It sounds like you have but sometimes using the compression method. Next I would bump the engine over and when you get the #1 to pop. Stop and check when the rotor is pointing it should be near the #1 plug wire on the distributor. Double check firing order and direction on the cap. From there I would twist the distributor trying different combinations of timing near the #1 to see if you can get it to fire. If you have a rubber fuel line you can clamp the hose with vice grips so your not constantly washing you cylinders down with fuel.

John

1968 Camaro -tear down in process
1967 Chevelle Malibu 396, 4 speed
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 14, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
Tim
 
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

Thanks for the reply

I like simple, thats how things are usually figured out. There is spark. The power lead to the coil lights up with a test light when the key is on. I can see small marks on each of the distributor cap tabs. I had a plug out with the wire attached and it sparked. Im thinking the plugs may be fouled again and not giving enough spark to fire? Could be fuel and oil fouled at this point as I changed them before I put on the new carb.
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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 14, 12:35 PM
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John
 
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

I would think no matter how bad the plugs are it would at least fire and stumble. If you had a really bad vacuum leak it may not run, but you would think it would pop. If you swapped from an points to a HEU you have to up grade to a larger wire because it pulls more. Did you try buying one of those spark testers at an auto parts store? They are cheap and work well at determining the strength of your spark. You adjust it to the ignition system you are running clamp it to your motor and then plug a wire into it. That would at least eliminate that variable.

John

1968 Camaro -tear down in process
1967 Chevelle Malibu 396, 4 speed
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 14, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
Tim
 
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

The car already had an HEI setup.
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 14, 03:41 PM
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

Are u sure 100% that the ign
Quote:
The car already had an HEI setup.
Thats an assumption its correct.
HEI requires non ballast ( resistance wire or a ballast resistor in the circuit)

Sounds like u have the #1 firing on compression right from your description.. so eliminate that
It will fire AND idle anywhere between 8 and 18 degs.. IF the springs in the dizzie are not too light.. Aim more for 12 to 16 ball park.
Recheck the firing order after taking a long walk...
Close the gaps up to 35/1000.. rich or lean mixtures have big resistance between the plug electrodes.. big gap just adds to that.

Get a new spare set plugs, worth the cost and effort....
put them in , no throttle. a good squirt of engine start down the carb and fire up on a fully charged battery
What happens?
Failing that

Get , borrow a basically stock HEI.. forget the after market 'racing' propaganda BS (if serious racing u have a locked timing or magneto)
Also Carb definitely sounds something is wrong.. clean out the float valves....and set so fluid is low... then reset later when engine is idling.
And block off ALL vaccuum take offs, VA, brakes, A/C etc.. eliminate any leaks in those areas.
At the plug end of Each HT lead when cranking over u should have a nice at least 1" + blue spark if u have a healthy charged battery

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 14, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
Tim
 
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

The carb has been replaced with a brand new holley. Ill try your suggestions on plug gap and vacuum sources with a new set of plugs.
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 7th, 14, 03:04 PM
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

When u drop a new carb on.. Assuming it has been jetted etc to ball park specs of your engine...will still need to make sure the accel pump gap is correct, the secondaries set so mixture and idle speed screws are in _/+ 1/2 turn of spec and the float levels correct.

If these are not u will get flooding, hesitation under load, starvation.. all sorts of easy fix issues...
Get idle timing right on intial timing( with no VA) to get engine fired, then start sorting float levels
secondary butterfly/ idle speed / mixture screws
Set the accel pump gap.
set total and idle advance into ball park
Now dial in carb idle circuit , power circuit and cruise circuit AFRs
Now establish (dial in) the timing tuning specs ideal initial , best total...
Then with a bit of juggling changing the amount of degrees in the cent and VA and the VA Vaccuum start/ end point ..to meet those specs so idle is low and made up of initial +VA on non egr engines..

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 7th, 14, 05:33 PM
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

Have to agree with Steps on this one. Being the carb is new does not mean the needle and seat on the bowls are not stuck wide open. Or the idle circuits are not in the ball park. It sounds like you know enough about getting the motor to fire on initial start up and are going through the right steps. It sounds like to me it's dumping fuel into it on start up.

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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 14, 10:48 AM
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Smile Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

Has that Summit HEI been used on a running engine ? If I remember right there was an issue with the Summit HEI's.

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 14, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
Tim
 
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

Thanks guys. I've always played with LT1 engines so carb tuning is new to me. I don't believe the new carb is dumping fuel but I could be wrong. Hopefully I can get it to run and then I can start tweaking everything. Thanks for those tips step toe hopefully I can get this camaro rowing the 4 speed in short order.
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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 14, 11:50 AM
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

So, it's been an hour. Any confirmed spark from that HEI?

One owner 69 Camaro,(yep, bought it new
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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 14, 01:11 PM
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

LEAVE THE SPARK PLUG GAP TO .045, NO NEED TO CLOSE IT DOWN.

Plugs dry/clean, or wet, black?

Voltage test from feed wire into HEI, disconnected from BATT terminal, to engine ground, volts in BOTH START and RUN? Run will have more volts than start, as start also runs starter motor,for significant volts drop reading.

Your procedures for finding number 1 firing and initial set of distributor were right the first time. Finger in plug hole, pressure build, hand move crank to attain full TDC, check lines on balancer/scale for accuracy.

At this point, you would need to confirm TDC lines up with zero on timing scale. To do this, I usually use a small screwdriver through the plug hole while HAND ROTATING the crank with socket and breaker bar, to "feel" the piston come to the top of its stroke. I then can confirm/deny the TDC interface on the balancer is correctly aligned.

Install dist with rotor pointing to the terminal you wish to use as number 1 on cap. Then, remove the rotor and on the large HEI, you will notice on the magnetic pickup, 8 inner and 8 outer 'spikes'. Line the closest spike set up0, lock dist down so it can be moved, but not so loose it moves by itself.

Reassemble rotor and cap, make sure feed wire in place, try to start engine.

If no spark, remove feed wire from dist BATT term, jumper wire BATT on dist to positive post on battery, try to start engine again, if starts, problems with feed wire, no, distributor issue.

Now, also check the IGN or IGNITION terminal on the fuse box inside the cab, full volts at ignition switch RUN and START. If good, run 12 gauge wire from that post on fuse box, to BATT (but, assuming the old HEI worked correctly, the feed wire that is there now may well be OK, or, could have issues).

Changing the feed wire from the bulkhead connector to the BATT terminal is a waste of time and butchers up a perfectly good wiring loom, and just isn't needed.

If the IGN term does not have power in start, post here, and we will describe alternate method, but, it shouldn't be needed.

One common problem with the large cap HEI's is the coil grounding. Of the 3 wires between the dist and cap, the center is the ground wire for the in cap coil, and MUST be clean, and in place. The coil is screwed down into the cap with 4 screws, and under the coil there is a Buss bar from the center of the 3 wire feed terminal, to the underside of the coil. The coil itself also has a ring terminal that goes to one of the screws, to ground the coil. All must be correctly installed, clean, tight.

Also while coil is out of cap, ensure the correct install of carbon post, insulator, coil. The correct install is bare cap, carbon button with spring pointing upwards, insulator, (ground Buss bar in place as well), coil.

The single most largest failure issue on large cap HEI's is the HEI module, but, NOT because the modules are failure prone, but, because coils layer short from all sorts of reasons, and over work the modules to failure. Usually, the coil is the last thing to get checked, because persons tall others "it is that module that is the problem, you need a (fill in the blank "racing" expensive one). NOT SO.

If there is a problem suspected with either a module, or especially, the coil, take them off the distributor, find a parts store that has a run tester, runs them OFF the vehicle, and let them run to get hot on the tester. Replace shady/doubtful/dead parts. NOTE: resistance tests of modules and/or coils are NO LONGER WORKABLE, no matter whom says different. RUN TEST IT.

Magnetic pickup coils are also problem prone, in the connectors at then ends of both feed wires to module connector, and they fail. A resistance check from each terminal of the pickup connector to the other, while moving the wires should show an intermittent wire connection in the pickup wires/connector to module. Resistance for the HEI pickups is 400 to 1,100 ohms, Rx1 scale. Should have NO continuity to ground from either sire.
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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 14, 03:33 PM
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

A simple check of a strong spark at the plug will confirm all of the above is ok..

And as stated above.. the carb is likely to have issues....bad mixture ratios , higher resistance across gaps, HT leakage and other issues, add to that the gap alone on plugs it not what is critical, it is the total gap across plugs AND the gap between pins and rotor..
Electrons , like water follow the easiest path... closing the gap elimated and faulta that may lay between these gaps , be it the total distance, the mixture resistance whatever.

We are talking a home work shop thru a simple trouble shooting procedure the simplest way ....not jumping to conclusions , pulling the dizzie apart when the chances are thats not where the fault maybe.

In all the years mess with GM type HEIs the only issues have been broken module wires, worn shaft bushes, worn counter weight bushes, worn cap pins, and counter weights need a clean.

Quote:
The single most largest failure issue on large cap HEI's is the HEI module, but, NOT because the modules are failure prone, but, because coils layer short from all sorts of reasons, and over work the modules to failure
yes.. but this was only an issue on the very 1st couple yrs of the 4 pin modules, then since then with design modifications in the modules , never again.
And in practice the chances of ever seeing one of these original modules , let alone one that still works is so totally remote.

So keeping simple.. check each HT lead has a good strong spark at the plug end
If so
Drop in new plugs
Fully charged battery (voltage drops during firing reduced dramatically)
Set initial timing in ball park, little more advance than needed ,12 to 18 degrees.
Do not rev the engine out at high intial advance without knowing what the total is, and VA disconnected... eliminates risk of way over advancing type damage , espec on a fresh engine... piston skirt collapse etc... and even more so with a carb thats not dialed into that engine... which this one isnt.
Dont pump the throttle, push very slowly it and hold it WoT, a squirt of Either down the carb
The higher initial advance allows the engine to spin over with significant less current draw, less voltage drop, and the faster spin the better chance of firing and catching.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 14, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
Tim
 
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Re: 67 HEI big block will not run

We returned the summit distributor and got a StreetFire brand. Better quality unit. Got another set of plugs and after setting initial timing to 16 degrees BTC it fired up.
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