Ideas for a better oil filter seal? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 14, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

I'm getting some pretty high oil pressure readings, 80psi at some points with moderate throttle.

I put in some thinner oil(its a little thinner than 15-40 at this point), and upgraded to a K&N HP-3001 filter on the relocated oil filter(left of the radiator on the passenger fender in engine bay)

I replaced the filter mount(previous owner was sure that was the problem and included a new mount), but am still getting a little oil blow out at the seal on the filter.

And yes, I'm sure its coming from the seal, and yes, I oil my filter seals when installing.

Other than that I'm having no problems with the pressure.

Formers: 1969 RS 350, 700HP 1967 Flash-in-a-pan Firebird 400, 2002 Z28 M6 1SC/1SZ
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 14, 03:23 PM
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

I had a bad oil pump once that had a bad pressure relief valve in it.. It would blow the seal after 90 seconds or so at idle and dump a few quarts of oil on the ground... . A new oil pump solved the problem... $30 part, pain in the butt to change...
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 14, 03:46 PM
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

inspect the oil filter seal and sealing surface and figure out why it is leaking.
Then with that knowledge u can start to address the the issue...
And include with that , as mentioned above, why such high pressure it blows the seal, relief valve,As mentioned above.... what tolerance was the crank bearings assembled at?
and if the pressure gauge is actually reading correct

Personally I would not be looking to a 'patch ' fix such as better filter seal, but why so high, and high pressure usually means far too small tolerance in the main bearings, and if so maybe enough to cause greater issues further into the future.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 14, 04:52 PM
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

Napa Gold made by Wix. If you have the oil filter bypass plugged , this will still work, unless you have pump bypass issues as someone mentioned.
Constant hi oil pressures tend to wash out crank bearings. Listen to what Steptoe is saying .

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 14, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
inspect the oil filter seal and sealing surface and figure out why it is leaking.
Then with that knowledge u can start to address the the issue...
And include with that , as mentioned above, why such high pressure it blows the seal, relief valve,As mentioned above.... what tolerance was the crank bearings assembled at?
and if the pressure gauge is actually reading correct

Personally I would not be looking to a 'patch ' fix such as better filter seal, but why so high, and high pressure usually means far too small tolerance in the main bearings, and if so maybe enough to cause greater issues further into the future.
Filter seal is fine, this is the second filter. Mounting surface is fine, this is the second also. I have no idea what the clearances are, I'm the third owner after the engine was built. The engine was built by a drag racer, who supposedly runs his own funny car(I don't know him). That owner is a mechanic by profession, and when the AC shop called to ask about the heads, the head designer at Roland Racing(the guy who made CV-1 heads) knew the car, owner and engine, and asked how it was doing, and if he solved a oil blow by issue from the low friction rings(car has a vaccum pump now, figure that is why).

New BP (Butler Performance, its a IA II block)Pro oil pump was installed April 2013


Its not contantly high, . I'll try to get a video if I take it out tomorrow. I can't now.

Formers: 1969 RS 350, 700HP 1967 Flash-in-a-pan Firebird 400, 2002 Z28 M6 1SC/1SZ

Last edited by SnakeEyes; Aug 15th, 14 at 06:01 PM.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 14, 08:11 PM
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

A motor built by a drag racer is concerned about getting oil constantly and filtering it totally.
I suspect the oil filter adapter is mechanically plugged, by that I mean there is either no bypass on the block adapter or its been drilled and tapped with a plug. We are talking about the block mounted filter here , right? As some real deep racers may add an externally plumbed additional filter mounted else where in the engine bay. So I presume we are not talking about that.

First thing I would , is pull that filter and look for a little relief hole with a fiber disc that is spring loaded. If its not there or you see some type of plug or even a plastic plug, then this may be part of your problem.

I ran this plugged bypass on my street car , to ensure that all my oil , goes thru the filter. With a stock unplugged adapter , this allows for oil to bypass the filter element and go straight to the bearings. The stock adapter was put there for people that don't change there oil or don't care about their motor or car.
When I ran this plugged adapter, my hi volume pump was always pegging 75-80 psi and that was hot, it was worse in winter and I ran 20-40wt oil for my area.
I finally pulled that bypass off as I felt one day I would pop the filter gasket, as you are doing. These stock bypass oil filter adapter are available from any GM dealer and are cheap. I have several in my tool box, including the one that is plugged.
So, that's my 2

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 14, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdld17 View Post
A motor built by a drag racer is concerned about getting oil constantly and filtering it totally.
I suspect the oil filter adapter is mechanically plugged, by that I mean there is either no bypass on the block adapter or its been drilled and tapped with a plug. We are talking about the block mounted filter here , right? As some real deep racers may add an externally plumbed additional filter mounted else where in the engine bay. So I presume we are not talking about that.

First thing I would , is pull that filter and look for a little relief hole with a fiber disc that is spring loaded. If its not there or you see some type of plug or even a plastic plug, then this may be part of your problem.

I ran this plugged bypass on my street car , to ensure that all my oil , goes thru the filter. With a stock unplugged adapter , this allows for oil to bypass the filter element and go straight to the bearings. The stock adapter was put there for people that don't change there oil or don't care about their motor or car.
When I ran this plugged adapter, my hi volume pump was always pegging 75-80 psi and that was hot, it was worse in winter and I ran 20-40wt oil for my area.
I finally pulled that bypass off as I felt one day I would pop the filter gasket, as you are doing. These stock bypass oil filter adapter are available from any GM dealer and are cheap. I have several in my tool box, including the one that is plugged.
So, that's my 2
I think you missed the part where I said "relocated oil filter"(Don't take that the wrong way, trying NOT to sound rude). No filter on block. There are lines from where the filter mount WOULD be on the block running to the passenger side fender where the oil filter is now.

Here is a pic, bottom left


Car has the second pump on this page.
http://www.butlerperformance.com/pro...ns_access.html

Dont think this the exact size one I have but close enough http://wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDet...spx?Part=24764

Formers: 1969 RS 350, 700HP 1967 Flash-in-a-pan Firebird 400, 2002 Z28 M6 1SC/1SZ
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 14, 05:19 AM
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

I mentioned externally located filter and I see it in your photo. Yes , I miss it, now you need to figure out how you can add a relief to it, or go back to stock location and replumb. But then I don't know what your intentions are with this set up, race or cruise? Looks like a pro-street motor and BBc or Pont?

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 14, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdld17 View Post
I mentioned externally located filter and I see it in your photo. Yes , I miss it, now you need to figure out how you can add a relief to it, or go back to stock location and replumb. But then I don't know what your intentions are with this set up, race or cruise? Looks like a pro-street motor and BBc or Pont?
I don't think you clicked on my link either.

"Bypass spring tested/blueprinted (75-80 psi)"

Its an IA II block. (Pontiac).

Full spec for the Butler Performance Pro Series oil pump

Extra thick diamond lapped .250" oil pump plate with anti-gall/ anti-cavitation grooves
Drive shaft bore supplied wih oil groove/ micro polished drive shaft
Pump gear pedestal pads diamond lapped and supplied with oil groove
Idler gear honed and oil weep hole added
Gasket surface diamond lapped
Bypass ball and sealing surface machined/blueprinted
Bypass spring tested/blueprinted (75-80 psi)
Copper gasket included
Flow chart included

Formers: 1969 RS 350, 700HP 1967 Flash-in-a-pan Firebird 400, 2002 Z28 M6 1SC/1SZ
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 14, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

Here are the videos.

Warm, idle, light accel:
http://youtu.be/ZCntGgyvlZg

Cruise after warm:
http://youtu.be/5M4HCES-0ns

Start, warm up:
http://youtu.be/VPf3cGbKDu0

Formers: 1969 RS 350, 700HP 1967 Flash-in-a-pan Firebird 400, 2002 Z28 M6 1SC/1SZ
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 14, 01:59 PM
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

I would check the sealing surface of your of you remote filter. My Dart block requires a remote filter. I run a billet Moroso remote filter setup with a K&N HP-3002. My pressure when cold routinely goes higher than 80PSI and I have not had any problems.


'69 Camaro - 429 SBC Dart Iron Eagle 9.325" block, Crower crank, Crower 6" billet rods, Ross pistons (10:1), Total Seal rings, AFR 245 heads, T&D steel body shaft rockers, Cloyes Timing set, custom ground 4-7 swap solid roller 274/286 @ .050" with .704" lift, Dart single plane, Holley Dominator EFI on E85, Injector Dynamics ID2000 Injectors, Stef's #1705R oil pan, F2 Procharger, Lemons 2" primary 4" collector, ATI 9" blower converter
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 14, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve69SS396 View Post
I would check the sealing surface of your of you remote filter. My Dart block requires a remote filter. I run a billet Moroso remote filter setup with a K&N HP-3002. My pressure when cold routinely goes higher than 80PSI and I have not had any problems.
It looked fine, when I installed it, like this (but clean).


Formers: 1969 RS 350, 700HP 1967 Flash-in-a-pan Firebird 400, 2002 Z28 M6 1SC/1SZ
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 14, 03:14 PM
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

I don't know Pontiacs, but that is way too much oil pressure. You are pegging the gauge when cold at less than 2k rpm. That's not right.

I have never seen oil pressure blow through a filter seal, there would have to be a surface imperfection or incredibly high oil pressure. I had a pump bypass plug on my 5 liter mustang and it never leaked but actually blew the filter can off it's base, when I checked why my oil pressure was zero all that was left was the base.

Quote:
A motor built by a drag racer is concerned about getting oil constantly and filtering it totally
I agree with the filtering it constantly and keeping oil flowing, (I run a plugged bypass myself), but no drag racer that knows motors wants that much oil pressure, all you are doing is robbing power at the pressures you are seeing.

If I understand your post the filter bypass is checked at 80 psi, that means about half the time your running unfiltered oil through that motor.

100psi is way too much pressure at the points you are showing. I would try as low of a viscosity oil you can get, but I think the issue is at your pump.

Good luck with it, you might want to try a Pontiac engine guy if you know any.

Sean

1968 rs with an old school 354" SB2.2 pump gas motor.

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 14, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

I just took off the mount, re tightened everything. It looks like one of the fittings may have been one thread from tight, and the filter is slanted maybe a degree or two from level when everything is bolted up.. If oil was slowing coming out at the fitting, it would have pooled on the other side, and then filled up to the seal. I took the filter off, cleaned the seal, and tightened it as tight as it would go.


Hopefully this is the leak, won't know until I drive it.

Formers: 1969 RS 350, 700HP 1967 Flash-in-a-pan Firebird 400, 2002 Z28 M6 1SC/1SZ
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 14, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ideas for a better oil filter seal?

Here is something interesting, a 455 guy is told 70 psi at 65mph is not bad for a Pontiac. In fact it looks like my idle pressure is low when warm.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/pont...ure-35754.html

Formers: 1969 RS 350, 700HP 1967 Flash-in-a-pan Firebird 400, 2002 Z28 M6 1SC/1SZ
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