Starter Issues, Heat related - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 14, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
Barry
 
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Starter Issues, Heat related

Guys I've got what I think is the dreaded starter heat soak issue. Only happens when the car is hot and has been stopped and started several times during a trip. Turn the key and all I hear is a click, wait long enough and it will eventually start. Last time it happened, I tried several times, then hooked up a jump starter and it started immediately.
Here's what has been done:
New Battery Positive and negative cables, negative hooked to engine block.
New hi torque mini starter, starts great when it does.
Heat shield over mini starter
Ran new +12 volt power wire 10 gauge (purple) from firewall to small push on post on mini starter. (there was a previous solder connection on this wire about where it goes past the distibutor, looked bas and green corrosion as well)
Battery is 550 CCA, had it checked at Advance and they said it was great. Im wondering if I should upgrade to a stronger battery, maybe just not good enough when things are hot...
Havent done anything with the ignition switch, solenoid seems to click everytime, so I'm thinking its doing it job.

What next? I just want a dependable car, tired of worrying about it...

Your help is appreciated. Barry
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 14, 03:57 PM
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Steven
 
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

have you thought about a remote starter solenoid to mount somewhere on the firewall?
is your mini starter clockable? if so try clocking it towards the engine block

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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 14, 04:26 PM
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Al
 
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

Get it hot so that it just clicks, then jumper from the batt stud to the S stud on the solenoid. If it cranks you can rule out the starter and the battery. Next measure the voltage at the S terminal with a voltmeter while someone operates the key. if you get significantly less than batt voltage do the same measurement at both sides of the ign switch and the neutral safety/clutch switches to isolate the problem.


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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 14, 05:04 PM Thread Starter
Barry
 
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

What size jumper wire? Gage?
From the s terminal on solenoid to the heavy gage wire on solenoid from the battery, right?
For the ignition switch test, check from the purple wire to ground?

THanks for the info.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 14, 05:48 PM
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Al
 
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry1965 View Post
What size jumper wire? Gage? you can do it with a screwdriver, just be careful you don't hit the chassis or block. Trans in neutral or park, brake set, key OFF. You're just testing the batt and starter. Better would be a remote start button
From the s terminal on solenoid to the heavy gage wire on solenoid from the battery, right? Correct
For the ignition switch test, check from the purple wire to ground? Yes - check at the solenoid while someone turns the key, engine too hot to start. If low voltage, check the wires into and out of the ign switch and the NSS.


THanks for the info.
Here's my take on heat soak -

Usually it happens like this - you drive around, the engine gets to operating temp , then you shut the motor off. If you try to start it immediately after shutting it off, it'll fire right up. Wait 10 or 15 minutes, then you get nothing. Wait an hour or so, and it'll start again like nothing is wrong.

When you shut it off, there is no longer any airflow over or coolant flow through the engine. The engine actually gets hotter just sitting there.(check your temp gauge sometime a minute or two after shutdown) It's a big thermal mass, and just sitting there, the starter gets hotter also since it's bolted directly to the block.

As the copper windings in the solenoid get hotter, resistance goes up, and more current is required to activate it. Wiring in good shape can deliver the required voltage/current and there is no problem. 45 y/o wiring, ign switches, NS switches often can't. Not to mention the purple S wire is a loooong way and several potentially dirty connections from the battery - junction block, horn relay, bulkhead connector, both switches, etc.


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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 14, 11:18 PM
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Steps
 
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

Quote:
Guys I've got what I think is the dreaded starter heat soak issue
If u remove the starter and pull the armature then test it on a growler, and /or test the The armiture coils when warmed up, u will find there will be 'dry joints, bad connections
OR
If open up the solenoid the copper contact washer needs Timing 90 degs or replacing

Solenoid washers do eventually need service.
Armatures tend to eventually die.. but if one has high initial timing , the extra current draw due to the extra loads , causes a short armature life

The heat soak, is because with a warm armiture u have bad conacts....

The other issue could be the bushes. bearings need replacing...the armiture is not running directly in the middle of the electrical feild... brushes.. they last several bearing bush rebuilds.. so forget them

So u have a choice... patch or fix...
patch by going the remote solenoid BS or rather than FIX by pulling the current one apart and replacing or turning around.. if thats the issue
Or test the armature

Patching will 'fix' the problem for a short while then murphy will step in a the worst possible time...

All this is NOT 2nd hand info from some internet site or magazine... it is hands on testing of armatures with growlers, and hot armatures with reference to the AC Delco electrical maintenance manual and up date bulletins... 30 odd yrs ago.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 20th, 14, 06:43 AM
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Don
 
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

You have a mini starter, with a heat shield, that should work but I don't like the size of that 550 cca battery. Just my feelings.

May I ask which mini do you have?
As Step mentioned, you don't want to patch starter problems. I still run a cast iron nose GM starter with a heat shield. I have found that many people that have heat soak issues come from the solenoid internals where the plunger. I find some starter rebuilders do not put the stainless plunger sleeve in , instead they leave the plunger open to Teflon glide shoes that expand against the plunger and hold it back until it cools off.

But you said you have a mini, I would make sure your wire is good and the correct gauge. Then you may have a junk mini, I have seen plenty. Yakamoto made in china?.

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Last edited by zdld17; Oct 20th, 14 at 06:54 AM.
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 20th, 14, 06:59 AM
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

Thought I had the same issue (exact same symptoms), but it turned out to be corrosion on the connection at the starter.

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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 20th, 14, 03:33 PM
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Tom
 
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

Using the stock wiring with the ground on the block, use the 96 5.7L GM Mini-starter.
Don't use a remote solenoid on this starter.

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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 20th, 14, 03:50 PM
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Steps
 
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

Quote:
Thought I had the same issue (exact same symptoms), but it turned out to be corrosion on the connection at the starter.
Well u do have the exact same problems.. ts all about poor connections resistance etc... be it in terminals , solenoid contacts, armature coils etc....all drawing far to much current and voltage drops...just at a different place.

And another issue, espec with older cars , that doesnt help, is a purple wire in particular, that may have been sorted at some time in the last 40 odd yrs... this causes oxidation of the wire strand surfaces... electricity/ electrons flow down the surface , not thru the centre of a strand....oxidised surface means resistance, voltage drop , big current

The soln to this is a relay , mounted to one of the heater bolts in the engine compartment above the starter....with a main feed added to the relay from the back of the the fuse box on the ign side...and a the purple wire as the relay trigger.


The primary cause of armiture/ solenoid failure is a far to high initial timing, causing initial ms current draws over 1200 amps, add to that the other factors and stuff starts to fail over time.
Mini starters because of how geared dont draw as high amp... even so they are still not designed for any other issues.. corroded wires , to high initial timing etc and will fail also over time.
I could not source, in a hurry , off the shelf a good factory starter a couple yrs ago.. so thru a Chinese mini in....keep in mind this is a near 11:1 compression engine with low duration and over lap cam , with cranking pressures around the 220/ 240 psi.
I did the relay around 30 yrs ago....have low initial , and VA in the idle advance.
Daily driven.. every day.. shopping , work, towing etc.
This elcheapo Chinese mini starter than I considered more or less a temp 'fix' after 3 maybe 4 yrs, still works like new.

And a side note, the Chinese HEI I thru in around 5 yrs ago.. same needed in a hurry temp soln....is still good, expect the VA diapham sucked a kumara the other day.

I will not buy chinese bearings....period.. Aussie, Korean, US, European yes.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 20th, 14, 04:30 PM
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Mike Petrovich
 
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

Related:

https://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=301553

https://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=301265

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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old Oct 20th, 14, 05:07 PM
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Kev
 
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Re: Starter Issues, Heat related

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
Well u do have the exact same problems.. ts all about poor connections resistance etc... be it in terminals , solenoid contacts, armature coils etc....all drawing far to much current and voltage drops...just at a different place.
Poor connections and additional resistance cause less current not more.
Not sure why this nonsense is repeated so much by the same people.
Another solenoid isn't the answer.
The solenoid clicks so troubleshoot the solenoid and it's wiring.
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