Eliminate EGR? - Team Camaro Tech
Engine General Engine Discussion.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 14, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: earth
Posts: 584
Eliminate EGR?

Eliminate EGR? Your thoughts?


i don't have anything against EGR and what it does; i mainly wanted to clear up some space and clutter.

What are your thoughts on eliminating the EGR valve? If, in fact, it really does help the engine last longer (supposedly) then i don't have a problem leaving it. It's a stock transportation engine so i'm not necessarily wanting to remove it for any performance benefit.

Again, it's mainly to clear up some space.
puff puff is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 14, 06:24 PM
Senior Tech
Dave
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 4,684
Re: Eliminate EGR?

It's function is to lower emissions at idle so a car engine will pass the test at idle. Once you are off idle the valve is next to useless. If you live in a state without annual emission, or safety testing like Florida where there is no law against driving a top fuel car on the street, I would remove it permanently by installing a non-EGR aftermarket manifold that also is without carb heat.

Big Dave
Larger Dave is online now  
post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 27th, 14, 03:19 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Eliminate EGR?

Like above, EGR allows leaner mixtures.. leaner mixtures means more advanced timing...
The issue with egr over time, and this has not been resolved in the 40 yrs it has been around, be it carb/ injection/ monitored whatever... deposits build up on the inlet eventually causing loss power and issues... ESPEC if oil changes and regular service is not done... but still occurs.
It was because of the introduction of EGR that high voltage electronic ign systems where introduced (HEI) Leaner mixtures have higher resistance across the plug electrodes that require a higher voltage for consistent healthy spark....
Also with EGR manifold ported vaccuum for VA is used , where as non egr manifold ( thu some applications pre egr also used ported, usually non performance)
EGR timing tends to have far less cent and alot of VA advance......which generally means increasing the cent to around 22 degs and if need be simply by stops, reducing the VA to around the 8 to 12 deg ballpark.
initial timing non egr is made up of initial +the VA

Changing is no biggie, basically means re dialing in the engine for new tuning specs....generally no need to touch the carb... maybe slight sec butterlies adjustment an mixtures... filing/rounding .5 to 1mm off the cent counterweight tails.. and a couple little scraps of sheet metal with a hole to mount on the VA screw mounts as stoppers for the arm movement.... thu some VA are adjustable and may be adjustable enough with the screw inside the VA.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
 
post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 28th, 14, 10:55 PM
Gold Lifetime Member
Fred
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Seabeck WA
Posts: 8,375
Re: Eliminate EGR?

Those damn valves did teach us all a lesson though. They taught us that exhaust gas re-circulation, as was done in the mid '70's and beyond to reduce oxides of nitrogen emissions (photo chemical smog) is better done with a large overlap cam shaft. And a lot more fun too.

One owner 69 Camaro,(yep, bought it new
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
RS SS Hugger Orange, L88, 4:10's tru-tack posi, ducted hood, Endura, spoilers.
TH400 (CX) with Coan 8" converter, GV-OD, 8 track still on console and best et 10.495,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
128.79mph 1.428 60'
All with 1960's stuff. (except tires and converter)
+ MT Super Scavenger headers & 3" full exhaust with X pipe. 3700 lbs. with me in it.
1000cfm AED and HD Harold-Lunati SR, 725 lift with shaft rockers too.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Fred Ficarra is offline  
post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 14, 12:00 AM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Eliminate EGR?

Maybe we better explain that a little??
As a mixture is leaned out... (economy etc after the 1st world fuel crisis of the early 70s....from memory the 7 day war??? ) one has to increase advance due to slower burn times across the chamber... but increase advance also increases NOx emissions dramatically
Was a bit catch 22 situation....

But Fred could u explain the 'how' with overlap increase? I never got my head around that.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 14, 06:21 AM
Senior Tech
Bobby
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 125
Re: Eliminate EGR?

You should be able to cap it off
rdobbs1977 is offline  
post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 14, 11:54 AM
Gold Lifetime Member
Fred
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Seabeck WA
Posts: 8,375
Re: Eliminate EGR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
Maybe we better explain that a little??
As a mixture is leaned out... (economy etc after the 1st world fuel crisis of the early 70s....from memory the 7 day war??? ) one has to increase advance due to slower burn times across the chamber... but increase advance also increases NOx emissions dramatically
Was a bit catch 22 situation....

But Fred could u explain the 'how' with overlap increase? I never got my head around that.
The intake opens sooner to let in its fresh charge. The exhaust is still going out. The intake charge mixes and captures part of the exhaust that is also open longer. Make sense? Sure sounds good.
(edit; EGR, exhaust gas recirculation, does the same thing to cool combustion temps)

One owner 69 Camaro,(yep, bought it new
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
RS SS Hugger Orange, L88, 4:10's tru-tack posi, ducted hood, Endura, spoilers.
TH400 (CX) with Coan 8" converter, GV-OD, 8 track still on console and best et 10.495,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
128.79mph 1.428 60'
All with 1960's stuff. (except tires and converter)
+ MT Super Scavenger headers & 3" full exhaust with X pipe. 3700 lbs. with me in it.
1000cfm AED and HD Harold-Lunati SR, 725 lift with shaft rockers too.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Fred Ficarra; Oct 29th, 14 at 12:06 PM.
Fred Ficarra is offline  
post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 14, 01:06 PM
Senior Tech
Joe
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Marin County,California
Posts: 249
Re: Eliminate EGR?

What year? Which engine?
joesauer is offline  
post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 14, 01:52 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Eliminate EGR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Ficarra View Post
The intake opens sooner to let in its fresh charge. The exhaust is still going out. The intake charge mixes and captures part of the exhaust that is also open longer. Make sense? Sure sounds good.
(edit; EGR, exhaust gas recirculation, does the same thing to cool combustion temps)
yeah makes sense... sometimes we overlook the most simple basics..
Thu, on the other hand there is the other effect...one reads rich (espec the old leaded fuels back in the day) on the exhaust, both deposits and the old CO/CO2 anylisers.. then they would lean off the carb... when what was actually happening was a little raw unburnt fuel was following the exhaust out.....result lean burns .. too lean and melting holes in pistons.
Oh those where the days , dialling in by vacuum, plugs, exhaust COx ... pre data loggers etc

Think there was There was/ is a very narrow , balance between mixing exhaust, and that more concentrated 'pool' of fuel above the closed inlet fuel following the exhaust out

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 14, 05:25 PM
Gold Lifetime Member
Fred
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Seabeck WA
Posts: 8,375
Re: Eliminate EGR?

Along those same mysterious events, here's one for you Steps.
Last year I was new to my second set of Mickey Thompson Super Scavenger headers. (I might have told you this story) Anyway, with open headers and no other exhaust system installed I was turning consistent 10.90's at the strip. One day I refitted my 3" exhaust system with X pipe but didn't have time to remove it before race day, sooooo,,,,, the car ran through mufflers and was 80 pounds heavier and turned 3/10's quicker. No other changes. No other changes except turning it back into a street car. That meant new stereo speakers and stuff like that. To this day it's a 10.50 car. How's that for your weird-meter?

One owner 69 Camaro,(yep, bought it new
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
RS SS Hugger Orange, L88, 4:10's tru-tack posi, ducted hood, Endura, spoilers.
TH400 (CX) with Coan 8" converter, GV-OD, 8 track still on console and best et 10.495,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
128.79mph 1.428 60'
All with 1960's stuff. (except tires and converter)
+ MT Super Scavenger headers & 3" full exhaust with X pipe. 3700 lbs. with me in it.
1000cfm AED and HD Harold-Lunati SR, 725 lift with shaft rockers too.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Fred Ficarra is offline  
post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 14, 10:51 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Eliminate EGR?

No weird meter m8....years ago.. the 80s went down the headers route, yeah bit overlap on the cam.. and the overlap issue happened to be on my mind from experience a good decade before.
Anyway ran a curb and cracked the headers,.. another story... that was when I threw on the old set truck rams horns and dropped near .75 of a second off and ran faster...
I knew before the plugs showed marginally lean on the centre cylinders....now the showed text book with the rear 2 cylinders doing the normal marginally rich
Basically stopped the scavenging.
Still run the truck rams horns, next off the shelf cam had a little more over lap, slightly better... this cam I designed myself , custom.. think over did the overlap/ duration slightly, but not enough to hurt anything , just a bit more lumpy idle

From memory it was from some of Smokey yunks note/ books back in the very early 70s that initially put me onto this overlap/ scavenging stuff....crap thats over 40 yrs ago!!!

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 30th, 14, 06:48 AM
Senior Tech
Dave
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 4,684
Re: Eliminate EGR?

Have a member on Team Impala that built a 383 that looks like a 1964 327 that he put on the engine dyno.

He ran both headers and then bolted on 2-1/2 inch ram horns cast iron Chevy exhaust manifolds feeding into 2-1/2 inch header pipes and mufflers. Below 4,600 RPM the engine made more power and more torque with the cast iron manifolds on the motor than it did with open full length 1-5/8th inch primary tube headers.

Above this RPM the headers won hands down but how frequently are you running your engine above 4,600 on the street? Tachometers on one of these cars are as common as head lights. But I sometimes wonder if any one ever looks at them.

Big Dave
Larger Dave is online now  
post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 30th, 14, 11:31 AM
Senior Tech
Mike Petrovich
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 382
Re: Eliminate EGR?

Any related thoughts on long tube headers vs. shorty headers? (lower rpm torque, etc)

1968 327 sport coupe. Son of original owner.
mike p is offline  
post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 30th, 14, 11:59 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Eliminate EGR?

Quote:
2-1/2 inch ram horns cast iron Chevy exhaust manifolds
I have seen 1 set of those in my lifetime....
Quote:
Below 4,600 RPM the engine made more power and more torque with the cast iron manifolds on the motor than it did with open full length 1-5/8th inch primary tube headers.
Above this RPM the headers won hands down but how frequently are you running your engine above 4,600 on the street?
Hell yeah....then throw on a smaller carb.. lot more torque there to....
Quote:
Any related thoughts on long tube headers vs. shorty headers? (lower rpm torque, etc)
Yep......oh u want them to? lol
For a cruise car, doing the odd show off.. its all about torque.. throw the HP out the window... headers espec off the shelf, they are more higher end HP up around the 6000+ rpm range... and screw everything below.
Bottom line it works like this .. a unmonitored (ECU) non injected , carbed engine has at best a efficient power range of around 2500 to 3000 rpms.. higher the performance the narrower the power range.
Every now and they some guty pops up with a car, nothing to fancy and it goes like a bat out of hell.... WHY?
Because ALL the 'go components' are designed to work in a given power rpm range .... no compromises or brag component BS.....And the cam , dynamic compression ratios at given loads match the octane of the fuel at a given load and rpm.
So its not hard and rather cheap to get a basically stock sbc with the right cam to pull high 13s in mid 90s under 5000 rpms, and still run rather economically.. on todays stds.
Torque is what gets u moving quick
HP is what gives u a lot of speed when things, like wind resistance becomes a factor over 90/ 110 mph

Thats a far different 'mind set' right...

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 31st, 14, 11:58 AM
Senior Tech
Mike Petrovich
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 382
Re: Eliminate EGR?

Thanks, Steps, you and others have given good info on long headers vs manifolds.

I've seen some debates recently on long tube vs short headers, with some saying that shorty is closer to exhaust manifolds in performance.

I've never used short headers, so was just wondering if anyone else here had.

1968 327 sport coupe. Son of original owner.
mike p is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome