380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection" - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 14, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
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Brad
 
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380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

As a continuation of my long term issues with my health and engine in my 69 I'm starting a new thread.

My health is good now and it's time to get this Camaro back in order for Spring. Hence, 'Project Resurrection'.

Long story short (read the link above), while I was in the hospital I let someone build my 406 for me, first engine I haven't built for myself in 20+ years, and I don't think there is a correct clearance in it. So I decided to let it sit until I could build another.

I have a nice 511 casting 400 4 bolt over at G&G Machine in Stephenville, Texas (Donnell Gaines). Some of you may know who Donnell is but he has a long time reputation as a great engine builder, I know him personally and trust his work, plus he is only 30 miles west of me. He has align honed and decked the block and is waiting on the Scat stroker kit to arrive to finish hone and assemble.

I went with the Scat 1-90610BI which is a 3.48" stroke Scat 9000 series cast crank, forged I beam rods and forged Icon IC9938 pistons which are -3.7cc flat tops, all balanced by Scat (although Donnell is going to check it all to verify everything). Why a cast crank? I'm not going to make enough HP to require forged but certainly prefer forged rods and pistons even though I'll never spray it.

I was going to use my Edelbrock RPM Performer 70cc heads but as they are 185cc and have some years on them I decided to go with a pair of Dart Pro 1 200cc heads at 72cc which flow a little over 300 with the 2.05/1.60 SS valves and CompCam springs/guidplates. Along with my Edelbrock Air Gap intake it should work well. I'm keeping my new Edelbrock 750 but will get it tuned properly this time.

I selected a Howard's hyd roller kit .500/.510 - 278/284 duration but with 1.6 CompCam rollers which should give me about .533/.544" of lift. Lobe separation is 112 so should help scavenge well but still be streetable with my 2400RPM stall.

Once I get the old 406 pulled and get some of the external stuff off then we will get the 380 on the dyno and see where we stand. Should knock down around 450HP at the flywheel but push the curve up a bit. The 406 was likely making about the same HP, maybe a touch less, but had gobs of torque and could never hook up with the ArtCarr 2004R banging gears. Even with my sticky Nitto 275's it was a lost cause so maybe this will push things up in the RPM range a bit.

Some may ask why the 377/380...why a destroked 400, why give up the cubes? It's a valid question but I simply wanted to build a slightly hotter big bore short stroke engine. Maybe the Z/28 badges made me want a short stroke setup, I dunno, regardless it will be fun to see where it falls on the dyno and how it performs on the street. As a Pro Touring type of car it makes sense and would be fun for a track day too.

I'm keeping the 302 badges on the hood though.

Anyway, will update as things progress.

Oh.. and once the 406 is out we'll see what/if is really up inside. If all goes well then I'll refresh and put it on the engine stand for the next project...maybe something off road.

Brad G
1969 Camaro - 406 - 2004R

Last edited by American; Nov 11th, 14 at 09:36 AM.
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 14, 09:36 AM
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

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Originally Posted by American View Post
Long story short (read the link above), while I was in the hospital I let someone build my 406 for me, first engine I haven't built for myself in 20+ years, and I don't think there is a correct clearance in it. So I decided to let it sit until I could build another.


I'm keeping the 302 badges on the hood though.

Anyway, will update as things progress.

Oh.. and once the 406 is out we'll see what/if is really up inside. If all goes well then I'll refresh and put it on the engine stand for the next project...maybe something off road.
Glad to hear you back and healthy.

Here's my 406 in my Z..........left the badging and used the 302 decal on the air cleaner.

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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 14, 10:19 AM
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Sean
 
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

Should be a sweet little motor.

I just completed a big bore short stroke build, 4.155" bore (basically 400 .030" over) and a 3.25" stroke so 354". It's a bit of a hybrid because it uses SB2.2 heads, but I am extremely impressed with the power.
I agree more cubes is a good thing when it comes to making power, but on a street car you have to be realistic, the tires only hold so much torque.

Lots of folks said my motor with small cubes and big port heads, and pump gas compression, was going to be a dog down low. Granted it doesn't grunt like my 406 but it absolutely destroys the tires, from a stand still or a 1-2 shift (automatic). It's a blast to drive.

Of course it still has the 327 badges too. Hey, it's just a 327 bored .155" over...lol

Good luck with yours, keep us posted!

Sean

1968 rs with an old school 354" SB2.2 pump gas motor.

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

Franklin D. Roosevelt
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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 14, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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Brad
 
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

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Originally Posted by satz28 View Post
Glad to hear you back and healthy.

Here's my 406 in my Z..........left the badging and used the 302 decal on the air cleaner.

Thank you.

Nice, very clean. I still have the factory Frigidaire system on mine and quite frankly I never use it. Either it's nice and the windows are down or it's 110 here in Texas and too hot to run the AC without overheating the engine...and too damn hot to be out cruising anyway.

I'll keep it all sealed and boxed just in case and will keep heat (get's very cold here too). Who's AC delete box do you have on there? That's where I'm headed.

Brad G
1969 Camaro - 406 - 2004R
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 14, 10:24 AM Thread Starter
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Brad
 
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

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Originally Posted by 68rs406 View Post
Should be a sweet little motor.

I just completed a big bore short stroke build, 4.155" bore (basically 400 .030" over) and a 3.25" stroke so 354". It's a bit of a hybrid because it uses SB2.2 heads, but I am extremely impressed with the power.
I agree more cubes is a good thing when it comes to making power, but on a street car you have to be realistic, the tires only hold so much torque.

Lots of folks said my motor with small cubes and big port heads, and pump gas compression, was going to be a dog down low. Granted it doesn't grunt like my 406 but it absolutely destroys the tires, from a stand still or a 1-2 shift (automatic). It's a blast to drive.

Of course it still has the 327 badges too. Hey, it's just a 327 bored .155" over...lol

Good luck with yours, keep us posted!
Very interesting. What are the specs on your cam? Ever get any dyno runs on it?

Brad G
1969 Camaro - 406 - 2004R
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 14, 12:32 PM
 
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

Interesting build. I have wondered, just how much torque loss over a comparable 400/406 build? Also, how much more rpm potential does a 380 have over a 400 or conventional 383 build? A quick revving, high rpm, big bore, small block sounds good to me.
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 14, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
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Brad
 
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geno46 View Post
Interesting build. I have wondered, just how much torque loss over a comparable 400/406 build? Also, how much more rpm potential does a 380 have over a 400 or conventional 383 build? A quick revving, high rpm, big bore, small block sounds good to me.
One of the reasons I'm using G&G to build this is so we can dyno this thing and, at least with the components I'm using, see what it will do. The 408 I'm running now, even though it's noisy and really needs tuning, still plays havoc in the rear tires... all torque, .500" roller cam with the 185cc Edelbrocks makes for great low end...still revs pretty good too. Just needs the HP curve moved up about 2000RPMs .

I agree though, should be interesting.

On another note...

I spoke with Callies a few years ago, they had custom made some 3" stroke cranks for one of the Rolex series teams running LSx based engines which had the 305 cu in limits. Thought it would be killer to take an LQ9 block and the 3" stroke and build a retro? 302 for a Z28 with a Tremec behind it. I talked to one of the teams that had some engines and cranks, etc for sale...you had to spin the bejesus out of em but they were knocking down 750HP with good reliability.

Brad G
1969 Camaro - 406 - 2004R
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 14, 12:58 PM
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Anne
 
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

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Who's AC delete box do you have on there? That's where I'm headed.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ds...maro/year/1969

Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 14, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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Brad
 
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

Not to get off subject but ran a search of some of my emails and from 2010 found some more info.

I think this is what gave me the idea: http://www.camaroz28.com/chevrolets-...sema-show-car/

The engine shop that was building these engines for the Rolex teams was CRD Engine Development, Bob Cronini, out of Concord, NC.

This was a quick and dirty list of what he had as of May 2012 when I spoke with him then. 704-792-1955 Office if anyone is interested in calling him.

Quote:
6 LS 6 engine assemblies that are currently 5L but can be converted to 5.8 L [ Callies cranks,Dyres Rods,Jesel rockers,Cloyes Hex adjust timing chain,roller cam bearings,CNC ported heads, Titanium int. and exh.valves] The engines do not have oil pans or water pumps. 6 LS 2 engine assemblies that are currently 5L but can be converted to 6L. These have the same components as above but include sleeved blocks Cranks 12 @3.185 stroke 3 @ 3.5 stroke These are Callies cranks Ultra Lite 38-41 LBS 1.888 rod / STD main LS 2 Cyle heads 14 sets CNC ported can come with valves [titanium] int. 2.0/ exh 1.55 Jesel rockers to many to count Camshafts all solid rollers and Isky roller lifters to go with them all are used and as is

Brad G
1969 Camaro - 406 - 2004R
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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 14, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Brad
 
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

Thinking about running a low profile pan this time, the Milodon 30900 comes to mind. I typically like the Milodon pans and timing covers, just seem to always be well made.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mil-30900

Anyone run one of these?


Brad G
1969 Camaro - 406 - 2004R
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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 12th, 14, 04:29 PM
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

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Very interesting. What are the specs on your cam? Ever get any dyno runs on it?
It's been a fun build, and interesting.
The cam is on the radical side for a street car, but designed to utilize the cylinder head design. I don't have the sheet in front of me and I can't remember exactly but its a split duration in the high 240's to low 250's, 112 lsa, installed at 106, .680 at the valve.
No dyno time, I built it in my garage and dropped it in. Eventually I'll get it to the track and see how it does, but it feels faster than my 406.

It actually cruises nice, a bit surly at idle but not bad. It gets pretty hairy under throttle it revs so darn fast.

Sean

1968 rs with an old school 354" SB2.2 pump gas motor.

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

Franklin D. Roosevelt
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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 12th, 14, 04:37 PM
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geno46 View Post
Interesting build. I have wondered, just how much torque loss over a comparable 400/406 build? Also, how much more rpm potential does a 380 have over a 400 or conventional 383 build? A quick revving, high rpm, big bore, small block sounds good to me.
I've always been told roughly you give up the same number on power as you lose in cubes on an apples to apples build. But if you can't hold the torque at say 380" at what good is more? Sometimes moving power up the rpm a bit will make the car faster. Especially when traction limited.
As far as rpm the cubes are not really the issue, its the parts. Short stroke will likely rev quicker, mine certainly does.

Sean

1968 rs with an old school 354" SB2.2 pump gas motor.

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

Franklin D. Roosevelt
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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old Nov 18th, 14, 05:48 PM Thread Starter
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Brad
 
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

Rotating assembly is on the way to G&G, should be there Thursday.

Did some math and had a few discussions with the Howard's cam guys as well as G&G. As I'm probably not going to spin this much over 6k, if any, my current Edelbrock 185 heads, which flow 250+cfm out of the box, may really work just fine. Donnell says he has built several engines with them and they do surprisingly well. He says with a little cleanup and bowl work they should work great.

380 cubes with what will be a .530/.540 lift cam limiting to probably no more than 6250 RPM's, well, you can do the math.

I'm going to chew on this another day or so vs the Dart Pro1 200cc heads and go from there.

Brad G
1969 Camaro - 406 - 2004R
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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old Dec 1st, 14, 04:31 PM
Pat juliano
 
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

Please post updates!!! I just picked up 2 sbc 400's. Both 2 bolt blocks. One is a 509 hi nickel and a 511.
Owning a few 302's I keep the original DZ aside and had more than my share of fun of building several different combos with them. But one thing I love is hearing them scream at 7800 rpm.

My plan is to build a 377 with one of the 400 blocks. That way I get more cubes and spin it to 7000 after splayed caps and other block work.

I'm very interested in how yours comes out.

As far as parts I'm going to pretty much copy everything in my current 302 now. It runs like a beast from 4000 up but is a little lazy off the line as you can see in this video. It's dark in the video but you can hear and see what I'm talking about.
I'm hoping the extra cubes give me more torque
http://youtu.be/gFHkci8cHV8
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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 15, 06:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 380 SB Build - "Project Resurrection"

Sorry for the lack of updates, with holidays and yadayadayada...

SB is ready with the rotating assembly installed, other than the cam/timing set.

The Howards cam and lifters showed up, basically .530"/.540" 225-231 deg @ .050 (that is with 1.6 rockers).

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-cl110245-12

Instead of using my 185 cfm Edelbrocks I'm probably going with some 210cc Profiler heads from Weingartner (or something along those lines) which will flow around 300CFM compared to the Edelbrock's 250ish. Both are 70cc and will keep my Icon pistons in the 10.4:1 range:

http://www.wengines.com/SBCweingartner.html

So, no big progress but by the time G&G is finished with some tractor puller engines they have tying up the shop and dyno, I'll have everything together....maybe.

One thing is for certain, I'm going to dyno and tune this thing so when it goes in the Camaro it will be fire it up and go. Plus I'm dying to see what we can get out of it with a little tuning.

My goal is to see around 450HP and 400 FT LBS at the flywheel while being streetable but make some good punch in the higher revs. We shall see. I'd be tickled if I get more than that but 450 would be enough.

One thing I'm kicking around is the stall converter I have in there now. Some input here regarding that would be helpful: https://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2874586

Brad G
1969 Camaro - 406 - 2004R
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