350/300 dieseling problem - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 03, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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Well after 100 miles on the fresh engine, it is now running on to my embarasment

It was running at 6 or 8 degrees of initial and was running fine. I figure the engine was tight, but has now loosened up a bit.

I first tried to retard a little, TDC or 2 degrees, but it made it worse.

Then I did a little searching here and advanced it (a lot!) and backed the throttle plates down. Stopped diesieling, but now pinging.

I left it last night out of frustration.

My next plan to try is 10-12 advanced and see, but I'm still having a bouncy idle (vaccum), so it is hard to get a good low idle.

I really don't want to take the intake off (the lower edge is the only thing I can't check) if I have a vaccuum leak there.

Anyone else have this type of problem?

Kevin

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 03, 08:17 AM
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Kevin - you're on the right track. A new mill that runs on just about has to be the primary throttle blades are open too far or a vacuum leak. Work your idle rich-lean mixture screws for most vacuum or highest idle and run as much inital timing as you can without part or WOT pinging. then clos down the throttle blades some. You can put the vacuum advance on a manifold source and set the initial lower to avoud some of the pinging Make sure your sedondary throttle blades are adjusted properly as well...

...Dennis

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 03, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, Dennis. I did try using manifold vaccum to distrib and boy the distrib DID NOT like it. Idle speed starts to cycle up and down, distrib starts this loud clacking like the weights were being thrown back and forth. That definetely did not help [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'll keep hunting for the right settings. Kevin

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 03, 10:37 AM
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Sounds like the dist is in need of some work. the vacuum canister may be shot and pulling and releasing under steady vacuum, the springs could be shot or missing and the pins the weights pivot on could be worn...

...Dennis

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 03, 11:52 AM Thread Starter
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Dennis, I replaced the springs already and the distrib is a numbers matching one rebuilt by Jerry MacNiesh recently. This is the first time I've run it. I can stick another distrib in, if it comes to that.

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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 03, 12:03 PM
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You're not helping me here any!! Jerry does good work, maybe the vacuum canister. If you have a mighty vac pump you can test it very easy... a few pumps and it should move and hold the vacuum.

...Dennis

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 03, 02:11 PM
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Nothing about a vacuum advance should make it go clickety clack. Something is hosed.

-dnult

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68 Coupe, 350 w/ Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, cam, intake, 700R4, Dave's small body HEI
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 03, 03:57 PM
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You have tuning issues!

The manifold vacuum hookup was hunting around because it was not fully deployed at idle vacuum levels. The canister needs to be fully advanced at idle vacuum levels or else the idle will be unstable (up and down "hunting"). As the idle vacuum wobbles up and down, the vacuum advance moves around causing the idle speed to move around, maybe the varying RPM's causing the centrifugal advance to move around, or some other combination of the above [img]graemlins/clonk.gif[/img] See what I mean. [img]smile.gif[/img]


My apologies to anyone who is reading both of the threads I am posting on. There is a lot of duplication here.

First, make a mark on the balancer exactly 36 degrees to the right of the factory zero groove. It is 1/10th of the circumference measured with a fabric sewing tape measure or use 12 degrees on the tab three times. You can alternately use a store bought timing tape. Disconnect the vacuum advance and rev the engine high enough so the mechanical advance stops increasing. Now, line up the new 36 degree mark with the zero on the timing tab and lock the distributor down.

Now you want to play with the advance springs. Start with the lightest springs and work your way up one spring at a time until the ping goes away at WOT.

The last thing to do is measure the idle vacuum. You want to select a canister that is fully advanced roughly 2" lower than what your idle vacuum is in order to have a steady, cool, no run-on type idle. Hook it up to manifold vacuum and reset the idle speed/mixture screws.

That should do it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

-Mark.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 15th, 03, 07:50 AM Thread Starter
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Mark, That sounds like a plan!

I really like the working backwards part. It saves a bunch of time (that I've already wasted) on hunting for the right timing setup.

I will start the process tonight.

One question though, I have a stock 69 8" balancer, same as the 69 Z/28. Do you have a reading like " measure 3 and 5/8 inches from timing mark"? That would save a bunch of math time

Also "one spring at a time", is that literal, or do you mean one spring rate paired springs?

Thanks, Kevin

Kevin


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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 15th, 03, 08:17 AM
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Is this what you are looking for?

Quote:
Originally posted by onovakind67 in another thread:
While you're under there painting lines on the balancer, measure the circumference of it. 8" balancers are 25" around, 6-3/4" balancers are 21.2" around. 10% of this circumference is 36, so make a mark 10% of the circumference away from TDC in the CW direction to have a 36 BTDC timing reference. For you math-challenged folks, that's 2.5" on a 8" balancer and 2-1/8" on a 6-3/4" balancer. If you want 32 total timing, just line up the 36 mark with the 4 retard mark on the timing tab. If you want 38, line up with the 2 advance mark.

...Dennis

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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 15th, 03, 08:31 AM Thread Starter
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Dennis,

Yes, that is what I'm looking for. I used to do well in math, but now it just hurts the head

2.5" it is!

I know from just eyeballing were the timing mark was when I revved it was more like 3.5" so I know I'm way advanced.

Thanks! Kevin

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 15th, 03, 08:58 AM
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I actualy prefer to use a cloth tape to measure as 8" balancers are not always 8.000" if you get my drift. 2-1/2" should work fine though. The working backwards method of setting the timing is great. It takes the guess work out of the distributor setting. No matter what the original application or curve, the setting will be good. It also helps identify if you have issues with the advance mechanisim. The factory set them that way on the assembly line.

As for the springs, literaly one spring at a time. No need to match them both. You can mix and match the springs to get rates that are in between the matched pairs. This is a good thing. Start weak and move up till the ping goes away. You don't want the distributor to start advancing until you are well above the idle RPM (roughly 1000-1200 RPM)or you will experience that "Hunting" idle speed fluctuations like you had before. This will likely occur with the lightest advance springs.

Let me know when you get the WOT ping out of it. I have specs for the vacuum advance canisters if needed. Depending on your cam/engine setup, you will probably need a new can that is better matched to your setup. The vacuum advance is realy just drivabillity "icing on the cake", not part of the power production equation.

-Mark.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 15th, 03, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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Mark, thanks for the clarifications, but I think I have bigger problems now. I think I found my vacuum leak The plug on the right is #8 and the others look like #8 EXCEPT for #6 on the left. It looks like I have a slipped gasket at the bottom of the intake at #6. I now have a little more work to do I also verified that I have the B1 (same as 69 302ci) vacuum advance on both the 327 engine I took out and the newly restored 1111488 distrib in the car now. The vacuum canister is new also.


Kevin


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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 03, 03:29 PM
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That B1 canister might not like manifold vacuum hookup. Unless you have a minimum of 18" of vacuum at idle, it will not be stable when hooked up that way. If you measure the idle vacuum, you will know for sure if that was part of the problem. I use a B28 can that has the same amount of advance but it is all in at 8" of vacuum. I need that because of the big "30-30" cam I am running. Your setup is much less radical so hopefuly you will have more vacuum. Let us know how it all plays out. [img]smile.gif[/img]

-Mark.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 03, 06:14 AM Thread Starter
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Well, here is an update on my problems...

Changed out the intake gasket.. it was fine

Changed out the intake/carb gasket and lower carb gasket. Better! 14 in and smoother.

Then I received an email from Dave Ray and he showed me a mod to the vacuum advance that made a lot of sense [img]smile.gif[/img]

I made the mod and used the tune up suggestions from Mark, combined with Dave's.

Tried the 36 and blue and silver springs. Pings

I then tried a bunch of spring combos at 36, but went back to the blue/silver, but at 34. very slight ping at lower RPMs when hot.

Then I played with the vaccum advance. It's limited to 8-10 degrees at 1 turn.

Starts right up hot and cold. idles smoother and just a hint ping under part throttle with high vacuum. Does not diesel anymore. I just have to fix the new problem of the GEN light staying on for 30 sec after it's shut off. Alt is new, so I think it is the volt reg.

All in all, I like how it is running. Not perfectly dialed in yet, but I'm going to let it break in more and play with it again.

Thanks to Mark, Dave and the others for their help!

Here is the stuff from Dave:
"This is the way the stop plate should be set up on the Crane advance. Use
8/32 hex head machine screw and #8 washer to retain the plate, then set the
stop to give 8 cranksjaft degres, then full manifold vacuum after setting
the initial. This is the default setting for idle timing, and the overall
idle should come out to 20/22 degres, so with 8 vacuum, and 14 initial, that
would give you the 22 the engine wants."



Kevin


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