Wideband Holley 4150 tuning - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old May 16th, 15, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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John
 
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Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

Hello everyone! I installed an Autometer Wideband AFR gauge yesterday. I'm not totally sure how to use the info to best tune the carb. I do understand that this is just another tool to be used along with a vacuum gauge and timing light and not the end all. As far as I know, I am tuning for idle, cruise and wide open engine operation. My best guess is that for idle, much of the tuning will be using the mixture screws and dialing in an AFR that is close to stoic along with the highest manifold vacumn. Strictly guessing, cruise is gonna be adjusted for slightly lean and accomplished by primary jetting up or down accordingly. And WOT, by secondary jetting and maybe a larger power valve. I've never been that good with this kind of stuff so any help is appreciated. Basic specs on the engine are as follows: 350 CID .030 over. 10.25:1 compression ratio. Holley 4150/670 cfm Street Avenger vac secondary's. Weiand Stealth intakeComp Cams Xtreme Energy 274H with 1.6 roller rockers (duration 274 I/286 E .522 lift.) Trick Flow 2.02"/1.60 angle plug heads. Thanks so much! -- John

69’ Camaro convt. Metallic grey, Blueprint Engines roller 383 stroker 445hp/465tq. Edelbrock Air Gap intake. Holley Terminator EFI. Hooker stainless headers. Tremec TKO-600 5 speed, 3.55 posi rear, Vintage Air, March Performance, TMI Interiors
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old May 16th, 15, 11:26 AM
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

It does get a little complicated. I am a shade tree mechanic but read info to death. AFR for idle is the easy part. Wot make sure it is not lean.12's are good. Cruising can be just the idle circuit or the jets depending on what rpm you are at. Mine stays under 2k rpm at cruise so mine is all idle circuit. I needed to learn about iab's. AS far as cruise goes lean it til it stumble then give it the fuel it needs to run "happy".
http://members.tccoa.com/392bird/tuning.htm good read, hot rod has a good read about air bleeds
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old May 16th, 15, 04:31 PM
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

Wide band is A HUGE advance in tuning.. leaves vaccuum gauges reading plugs etc way behind in the dust....
U NEED it have the timing curves in the ball park 1st... bad timing curve and/ or the slightest mis fire due to a plug or HT lead will give a high AFR reading...yes high.. u are measuring the O 2 and if a miss fife not enough O2 is burnt
Understanding these basics 1st saves a lot of heartache later

As Mike says above idle is easy... setting mixture and idle speed screws to factory 1 1/2 turns.. then between adjusting the secondary butterflys and the idle advance bit by bit, so get the best stable idle speed that YOU would like at the lowest advance...without the secondary butterflies sitting closed on the bores.

u now have your tuning spec for idle.. carb and timing and should have a AFR a little on the lean side.. around the 14.8/ 15.2.. if have a bit of a wild cam that runs very inefficient at low rpms u may have to run slightly rich.

Power.. very similar..
Start with total around 34/36..all in around the 3200 rpms which will be high.. no VA connected... track test WoT over a given distance, timed...ave 3 runs
Adjust carb AFR to a ball park of 11.5 to 12.8.. mid to high of that range the better.
This is where data loggers are far better because of mili second play back later.
Once have the AFR ball park, now do runs retarding back till get a sudden drop off in power.. increase a couple degrees... u may want re adjust / fine tune the AFRS and repeat with the timing.. but if dont u will be so close, better than a factory car at this point.

So u now have the WoT AFRs and Total timing tuning point sorted.

If dont have a knock sensor attached to a data logger.
At this point u now adjust the cent timing in the dizzy so VA + initial = the idle timing above and still keep the total established above....and have the initial+cent+VA= no more than 42 degrees.
If have a knock sensor, u can take that 42 degrees out further knowing the point where u knock, be it under load or cruise.

VERY IMPORTANT.. only change 1 thing at a time, only do 1 operation at a time

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old May 17th, 15, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the great replies. I wish I understood everything a little bit more. One thing is clear, I'm pretty sure that the problems run deeper. For example my base timing without the advance connected is so far off the tab I can't even read it. But I'm guessing it's somewhere is around 36 º to 38 BTDC. º. This is way retarded as far as I'm know. Is it possible I installed the camshaft incorrectly? Is it possible my carb settings are so far off that it won't run anywhere near normal timing spec? Thanks
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old May 17th, 15, 03:15 PM
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

1st thing u need to know.. is where TDC is on the balancer.
Pull #1 spark plug... turn engine over manually (pull all the plugs makes turning easy)
with a thin screw driver.. u will feel the #1 piston come up..check that it is on the firing stroke.. not on #6 firing stroke (both valves closed)..as it COMES UP.. mark on the balance where u dont feel the piston moving anymore.... then keep turning engine over till just start t feel the piston start moving again DOWN....mark that spot.
1/2 way between is top dead centre, as close as any fancy piston stop tool will give u.

Now take a taylors, cloth type tape (metric makes easier), measure the circumference of the balancer... divide that number by 36...that is the distance of 10 degs.
Wrap the tape around again and use a 1 or l out of a number / letter stamp set and stamp each 10 degree to around 50 degs.....and use a center punch in between the 5 deg increments.
Do not measure the distances with dividers...u will be measuring between points, shorter, rather than over the outside arc.
A number punch from 20 deg up stops confusion later.
now clean off the area of the markings and with a bit white paint or wax crayon, paint over the areas, then wipe off the excess, leaving the crayon/ paint in the punch marks.

Now u can set timing, graph up and begin to dial in and establish the tuning specs for your engine.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old May 17th, 15, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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So I shouldn't assume that when the grooved line on the harmonic balancer is at 0 º on the timing tab the #1 cylinder is at TDC? I need to manually check as you describe? That sure might explain things.
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old May 17th, 15, 11:39 PM
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

Quote:
So I shouldn't assume that.....
NEVER A55-U & ME anything...
let alone timing marks.. there are so many cranks with so many different diam balances and so many different markers....

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old May 18th, 15, 06:54 AM Thread Starter
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Ok. I hear you loud and clear! Won't be till latter today, but will find TDC and hopefully scribe a much different mark.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old May 19th, 15, 08:10 AM
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

I used the older LM1 tuner along with a data logger. Made numerous wot runs and stuff. The read back was very helpful , it really told me where I was at my elevation . I had to only guess what is needed on the coast at sea level where car ran better.
On a power tour cruise coming into Alabama, I could tell elevation dropped and I needed more fuel. I wasn't prepared to deal with larger jets but did add. Didn't have the wideband hooked up along the way.
Data logger or the such was helpful to me. I run a 3310 carb. Yes larger rear power valves was needed too. hope this helps.

I also did some tuning with an HP 850 holley, I tuned to conditions on the sbc. Lots of difference but gas mileage went to dumps. Good wot response but not enough crisp throttle response.

Don
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old May 19th, 15, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

Here is the thing. I'm not really sure what I should be changing/adjusting to optimize the idle/cruise/WOT AFR readings. Is it the mixture screws? Jets? Power valve? With the Tremec 5 speed with .64 5th and 3.55 rear axle, I'm at 1975 rpm @70 mph.

69’ Camaro convt. Metallic grey, Blueprint Engines roller 383 stroker 445hp/465tq. Edelbrock Air Gap intake. Holley Terminator EFI. Hooker stainless headers. Tremec TKO-600 5 speed, 3.55 posi rear, Vintage Air, March Performance, TMI Interiors
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old May 19th, 15, 12:25 PM
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

If you read through the link I sent it will answer those questions. There are different circuits in the carb for different areas of tuning. It would take a very very long post to explain them all. I hate to tell you to do some homework but to understand the carb basics you really have no choice.
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old May 25th, 15, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

Good morning and happy Memorial Day! A little update. Cruising around town with no aggressive throttle, my AFR’s are running between about 11.3 and 12.8. Cruise on the highway, 5th gear (0.64) @70 mph and 2000 rpm, AFR’s are 12.8 - 13.2. Not sure that turning in the idle mixture screws is indicated since I'm still operating on the idle circuit at cruise, but I have a feeling that if I do, the engine is at the cusp of the curb idle speed and or vacuum dropping. If I depress the pedal fully to the floor, the motor has a tendency to heavily bog to the point it likely falls on its face. As a side note, the carburetor is brand new. I switched the stock primary #65 jets for #68s. I haven't changed the secondary jets and I believe they are also #68s. Also, I notice the fuel pressure upon cold start in about 5 psi, but by the time the engine has come up to operating temp, it has fallen to about 3.5 psi. Raising the engine rpm appears to have little or no effect on the fuel pressure. I don’t have another gauge to verify the accuracy of the one connected and its my understanding that a minimum of 5 psi is needed to adequately supply the carb especially under load. Is a drop in fuel pressure as the engine comes up to temp normal? What carb adjustments should I make at this point? I have been reading Mike. That link has alot of great information.

69’ Camaro convt. Metallic grey, Blueprint Engines roller 383 stroker 445hp/465tq. Edelbrock Air Gap intake. Holley Terminator EFI. Hooker stainless headers. Tremec TKO-600 5 speed, 3.55 posi rear, Vintage Air, March Performance, TMI Interiors
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old May 25th, 15, 09:18 AM
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyD View Post
Good morning and happy Memorial Day! A little update. Cruising around town with no aggressive throttle, my AFR’s are running between about 11.3 and 12.8. Cruise on the highway, 5th gear (0.64) @70 mph and 2000 rpm, AFR’s are 12.8 - 13.2. Not sure that turning in the idle mixture screws is indicated since I'm still operating on the idle circuit at cruise, but I have a feeling that if I do, the engine is at the cusp of the curb idle speed and or vacuum dropping. If I depress the pedal fully to the floor, the motor has a tendency to heavily bog to the point it likely falls on its face. As a side note, the carburetor is brand new. I switched the stock primary #65 jets for #68s. I haven't changed the secondary jets and I believe they are also #68s. Also, I notice the fuel pressure upon cold start in about 5 psi, but by the time the engine has come up to operating temp, it has fallen to about 3.5 psi. Raising the engine rpm appears to have little or no effect on the fuel pressure. I don’t have another gauge to verify the accuracy of the one connected and its my understanding that a minimum of 5 psi is needed to adequately supply the carb especially under load. Is a drop in fuel pressure as the engine comes up to temp normal? What carb adjustments should I make at this point? I have been reading Mike. That link has alot of great information.
Your cruise AFR of 11.3 to 12.8 is pretty rich, as a comparison I have my setup tuned so that while cruising around and at idle once warmed up, I'm around 14.7 for an AFR.

What was your cruise AFR before putting the larger #68 primary jets in place of the original #65 jets?

What is the AFR with the vehicle sitting still idling once it is warmed up and the choke is in the full open position?

And again, what is the AFR when you depress the pedal fully to the floor and the motor bogs to the point it likely falls on its face?

Finally (for now anyway), what is your manifold vacuum at idle?

The answers to these four questions will help us give you an idea what needs to change, for now I would not be concerned about the fuel pressure, especially not unless/until you can verify the gauge you are using is accurate.

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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old May 25th, 15, 09:29 AM
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

I would think you could get the cruise better. There are two ways to do it. One way is to open up the IAB but you have to be super careful with this adjustment. Not sure if you have adjustable air bleeds or not. I drilled mine open and got the cruise in the 14's. Open them up too much and you will get a lean surge. The other way is to make the IFR(idle feed restrictor) smaller either by swapping in a smaller one or using a small gauge wire to restrict the amount of fuel. Also fuel cools so the combustion chamber will be hotter. The HSAB don't need to be touched under 2k rpm. You said you get a bad bog when you step on it, what is the afr at that point? Another good read http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215780
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old May 25th, 15, 08:32 PM
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Re: Wideband Holley 4150 tuning

Quote:
Not sure that turning in the idle mixture screws is indicated since I'm still operating on the idle circuit at cruise,
yep to stuff guys posted above..

Think like this.. u have basically 3 independent carbs.. that happen to be in the same 'box'
The idle circuit, the power circuit and the cruise circuit...and an accelerator pump to help transition between them...
Even thu the idle circuit is 'open' with th others, there is not enough influence to make any significant difference... the position of the butterflies, primary and secondary limit the air and the mixture screws meter the fuel for idle carb only.....If the butterflies are too far open then u idle on part of the cruise circuit and part of the idle circuit... bad

A rich idle that cant be adjusted back to slightly lean, indicates maybe the secondary butterflies too far open... maybe float levels incorrect.. or idle timing incorrect.

Timing.. also the dizzy think in terms of a cruise 'circuit (cent at a given rpm + VA) idle circuit (if not EGR engine initial + VA and power circuit.. initial + how fast or slow the cent curve is and the total = initial +cent

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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