Wiseco Pro-True vs SRP Pistons - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 27th, 04, 11:55 PM Thread Starter
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Can anyone tell me what the thickness of the pin boss area is, measured from the base of the pin bore for a 383CI 5.700 stroker motor using Flat top 2 valve relief pistons.
Wiseco Pro-True?
SRP?

Thanks!

Kurt
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 28th, 04, 07:07 AM
 
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He, He!!

No! You can't cut them suckers down and make stroker pistons outta them!! It's too much trouble AND takes too much material off the pin boss bottoms and the top around the quench area...

He, He!! ----- Just had to, please carry-on..

pdq67



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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 28th, 04, 10:16 AM
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Although I don't have an answer, I'm curious why you want to know. I use the Wisecos(20cc D-dish) in my 383 (5.7), and ran into trouble with the crankshaft counterweight hitting the pin boss near the bottom of the stroke...we measured the pin boss thickness and found it to be what you'd expect, but I don't remember exactly what it was.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 28th, 04, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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Im at Disneyland right now but I will fill you guys in later tonight.

Kurt
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 28th, 04, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Ok here's the skinny on the goods.

Eagle 35037505700LW Stroker 4340 Forged Steel Crankshaft. 4th one.
Can't get one to clear the counter weights and the (out of the box) Wiseco piston pin boss's.
Eagle CRS5700B3D 4340 Steel Rods.
Wiseco PRO-TRU PT025H4 Piston kit. Measured pin boss area around (.200-.215) I think. I can’t remember right now.

I have been working with a fella at Eagle in Tennessee in trying to get this problem resolved, I told him exactly what im using and even offered to send him my rods and pistons,(my expense).He assured me it wasn’t necessary, but for some reason we are not having any luck.
It’s very hard for me to believe that they haven’t had this problem before me.
I’m at a strike 4 situation right now.

Wiseco people say that they have heard this several times now and assure me that it is not their pistons, but an Eagle Mfg. problem.
Wiseco people say that I could shave .200 off the piston boss area and it would be ok, but I am not really ok with their solution.

I understand that certain problems arise when you are stroking a motor, but in my mind if these manufactures are selling parts for a particular application, the parts should work together for that application.

So, should I grind on the Pistons, Crankshaft counterweights, or try another Crankshaft Mfg, such as Scatt.

Thanks for any help applied here.

Kurt
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 29th, 04, 05:48 AM
 
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FWIW, I just went out and "eye-balled" a set of new K-B .100" over true flat-top Hypers, (PN 202-100), for my 454 core motor that I bought to turn it into a 475 before the dreaded, "more power, Scottie" bug bit and I went 496.

They have about a 3/16" pin boss bottom thickness if this helps at all.

Plus, I did the same to one of my 283 cast stock type pistons, but it is like 3/8" thick so no help at all to me...

I would 100 percent ID the compression height application of the pistons first and then since they don't fit the cranks you have been trying, I would buy a crank that they fit!! Change crank companies if you have to..

OR send/drive a complete piston/rod/bearing assembly less rings and the crank to somebody like Lunati's in Memphis, TN and tell them to cam cut the cranks counterweights down, balance everything and give the bill to you.

ANd there is a good chance you will have extra balancing expenses too due to probably needing some heavi-metal to balance it. AND now is the time to neutral balance your assembly if it isn't already if you want to be able to use a 350 balancer and f/w or f/p later!!

I had to go through this with my 496 motor b/c I flat didn't pay any attention when the very nice Salesman at Lunati's told me to use at least 1/4" longer rods in my 496.. I went with ROSS stroker pistons and my good truck rods after rebuilding them and it locked up after a local Machine Shop balanced it!!

AND I am positive the old Dad that balanced it knew it would but his dick Son took the job anyway and didn't tell me the problem coming up!!

They made their balance job money knowing full well it wouldn't work AND lost me as a customer!!!! I say this b/c upon close inspection of my parts when I found out it locked up at assembly up time, one of the piston rod assemblies I had never touched was marked on the pin bosses bottom which indicated to me a trial fit that showed up the lock up problem!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, I wasn't upset at all until the Son said Dad could cam grind the crank and rebalance it if I got the info from Lunati as to what was needed. I did and several weeks later, Dad backed out of it and I never got a call from the Son and I went and picked my stuff up and didn't go back..

Live and learn..

pdq67

PS., what is happening is that the stroker pistons account for the stroke and the piston not setting higher then the top of the block at TDC, but the sucker goes half the stroke down into the cylinder AND it is this that causes the boss to hit the counterweights IF stock length rods are USED!!!

That's why you need rods at least as long if not longer then half the stroke increase so that the bottom of the piston is raised to clear the counterweights OR CAM CUT THE CRANK!!!



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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 29th, 04, 07:40 AM
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Dad,
I have seen it a few times, the problem is the crank. I have one sitting at the shop right now. They are sending you a crank that is made for 6" rods, even though it is marked 5.7 I have even pruchased a complete kit from Eagle and had it happen. If you haven't balanced it yet, the best thing to do (if you can't) get the correct crank from Eagle) is to grind the counterweights some. It usual does not take much to make it work. Dont grind on the pistons. Taking .200 off does not sound right, I dont think the pistons are that thick in that area anyway ??? Hmmmmmm .. maybe it is a piston problem this time ? You nedd to measure the compression hight of the pistons for sure. I have not had a problem getting the correct crank the second time, if that is the problem. I will try to remember and look at some pistons on Monday ..... send me an e-mail reminder on Monday AM so I will get it at work.

Bill Koustenis
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 29th, 04, 09:30 AM
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Bill is right on the money (as usual) I have seen and heard of this several times. It is the counter weights on the crank. I am running Wiseco pistons in my 388 and I had no problems.

On a previous crank I had, the counter weights were an issue and took quite a bit of grinding. All grinding was done on the crank none on the pistons.

Royce (NO XQSSS) Bradley

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 29th, 04, 10:27 AM
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I used the EXACT same crank as you with the Wiseco's and had the same problem. The crank was at fault, not the pistons. The solution was to grind material off of the counterweights.

The problem is....is that you don't really know how much to grind off, so it becomes a time consuming trial and error affair. I'd be hesitant to grind a "substantial" amount when it will only take a "little" to clear. I believe my machinist shot for a .030 clearance at that point.

The good news is that the engine balanced internally with no problems at all. The Wiseco pistons are very light. I used Manley Sportmaster 4340 capscrew rods, and they are light as well. The final bobweight was 1683 grams, and the motor runs like a striped ape.

Here is my original post on the problem...

https://www.camaros.net/cgi-bin/forum...c/4/8189.html?

[ 08-29-2004, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: BPOS ]
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 29th, 04, 11:38 AM
 
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I have read about guy's taking a great big angle grinder to the counterweights in the old days but have never seen it done!!

And I think the number is more like .050" min counterweight to piston pin boss clearance but personally if .030" works, it's like horseshoes and gernades!! CLOSE ENOUGH for Government Work, imho..

pdq67

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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 29th, 04, 11:56 AM
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Al
 
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I re-read my old post. He shot for a min .040 betw the countweight and the pin boss. Nitrided 4340 doesn't sluff off like butter.

The Wiseco pin boss measured .200 at the thin spot.


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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 29th, 04, 12:56 PM
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pdq,
I have seen it done with an angle grinder as well, just to get it somewhat close and the machine it after that. Saved lots of time.

Royce (NO XQSSS) Bradley

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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 29th, 04, 03:05 PM
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I like to see .050" Use the 4" grinder and really does not take long at all. The point is though .... you really should not have to do it at all. Keep at Eagle till they get it right !

Bill Koustenis
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 29th, 04, 03:16 PM
 
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Ditto BillK!!!

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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Aug 31st, 04, 09:49 PM Thread Starter
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Back from Disneyland. Boy that was excruciating. Needed to spend a couple of more days there to do it all.
Anyhoo! Had a typo in my last post.

”Sorry Bill”
Should have been,
“Wiseco people say that I could shave .020 off the piston boss area and it would be ok, but I am not really ok with their solution.”

I did some measurements today and even if .020 was removed from either the pistons or crankshaft counterweights that would leave me with around .001 on the clearances.

So here today I again contacted my man at Eagle and enlightened him on the situation.
I told him that the piston bosses are hitting the entire counterweight areas on all the counterweights on this latest crankshaft. Seems this time he might have listened to me, even though there was still some disbelief on his part. Well, at least he took down the piston part number I am using for this stroker motor and said he would get back to me. I also told him that the second crankshaft they sent to me, even though it was not a lightweight one, had the best clearance of them all. It only lightly tapped #2 and #6 piston bosses. And the bottom assembly at least spun over.

So this has got me wondering? Maybe I should reconsider a standard weight stroker crankshaft over the lightweight one.

Kurt
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