Heads for my 421 build - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 6th, 15, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
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Heads for my 421 build

I've started to save my pennies to purchase the heads for my antique sbc 421" build.

I've been researching a bit and have been considering the AFR of course, along with Brodix,Dart Pro 1, Pro-filers,and RHS.

Based on AFRs recommendation, the AFR 210 Comp Eliminators.

RHS recommended a 180! I thought that seemed a bit small for a 421".?

I haven't heard back from Brodix,but I was looking at the CNC Brodix 210 "wild thing" heads they have.

I have an email into Speier Racing for info on his econo ported Pro-filer head.

I haven't spoken to anyone about the Darts yet, but I've read a few things online,that they can work pretty good with a little work.

My engine specs.

Dart shp
4.155" bore,
3.875" stroke
6" rod, flat tops,
zero deck.

Not too crazy on the cam, hyd roller.
545/565 lift
241/247 duration @ .050
l/c 110

1.75" headers.

I have a holley 750dbl pumper new in a box,
along with a new Edelbrock rpm air gap that I've had sitting around for a couple of years.

I'll most likely be looking at 72 ~ 76cc chambers to keep the compression streetable on 91 octane. 10.7:1 or so.

Next time I go down to the machine shop I'll sit down with my machinist and ask his opinion also, I just thought some of your opinions or experiences could be helpful also.

1968 Butternut Coupe,
421" Dart SHP block
TKO 600 RR
Dutchman 9" w/3.70 US Gear Lightning r&p
Speedtech torque arm,Ridetech HQ coilovers
Global West arms
Budnik wheels

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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 6th, 15, 06:59 PM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

I would talk with some engine builders. There should be some on this forum.
What ever you use it will be a BEAST!
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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 6th, 15, 07:06 PM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

What are your performance goals for the car? A 400+ in SBC needs a pretty big head to keep up with it. I would not use a 180cc head.

'69 Camaro - 429 SBC Dart Iron Eagle 9.325" block, Crower crank, Crower 6" billet rods, Ross pistons (10:1), Total Seal rings, AFR 245 heads, T&D steel body shaft rockers, Cloyes Timing set, custom ground 4-7 swap solid roller 274/286 @ .050" with .704" lift, Dart single plane, Holley Dominator EFI on E85, Injector Dynamics ID2000 Injectors, Stef's #1705R oil pan, F2 Procharger, Lemons 2" primary 4" collector, ATI 9" blower converter
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 6th, 15, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

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Originally Posted by Steve69SS396 View Post
What are your performance goals for the car? A 400+ in SBC needs a pretty big head to keep up with it. I would not use a 180cc head.
Steve,I'm sure you know Bobby Gains,he has my short block now. I just haven't talked details on the heads with him yet.

And yeah,I kind of laughed at the RHS 180 recommendation. He had the same info I posted here.I'm no engine expert,but that would have been a stretch on my 355" chevelle.

The only goal I really have is that I want the sucker go when I plant the pedal. I'd like to try some autocross club stuff when I get the car together. Other than that,it's just a weekend hobby to keep me out of trouble.
I was shooting for a solid 500-530 tq/hp range.

1968 Butternut Coupe,
421" Dart SHP block
TKO 600 RR
Dutchman 9" w/3.70 US Gear Lightning r&p
Speedtech torque arm,Ridetech HQ coilovers
Global West arms
Budnik wheels

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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 6th, 15, 07:39 PM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

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Originally Posted by ilikeike View Post
Steve,I'm sure you know Bobby Gains,he has my short block now. I just haven't talked details on the heads with him yet.

And yeah,I kind of laughed at the RHS 180 recommendation. He had the same info I posted here.I'm no engine expert,but that would have been a stretch on my 355" chevelle.

The only goal I really have is that I want the sucker go when I plant the pedal. I'd like to try some autocross club stuff when I get the car together. Other than that,it's just a weekend hobby to keep me out of trouble.
I was shooting for a solid 500-530 tq/hp range.
I know Bobby very well. He is a meticulous engine builder. He has built many engines for me over the years and I've never had a problem with his work.

A 421 SBC will easily exceed your goals. I would suggest the AFR 220 heads. You can still use stud mounted rockers and make tons of power.

'69 Camaro - 429 SBC Dart Iron Eagle 9.325" block, Crower crank, Crower 6" billet rods, Ross pistons (10:1), Total Seal rings, AFR 245 heads, T&D steel body shaft rockers, Cloyes Timing set, custom ground 4-7 swap solid roller 274/286 @ .050" with .704" lift, Dart single plane, Holley Dominator EFI on E85, Injector Dynamics ID2000 Injectors, Stef's #1705R oil pan, F2 Procharger, Lemons 2" primary 4" collector, ATI 9" blower converter
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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 15, 07:43 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

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Originally Posted by Steve69SS396 View Post
I know Bobby very well. He is a meticulous engine builder. He has built many engines for me over the years and I've never had a problem with his work.

A 421 SBC will easily exceed your goals. I would suggest the AFR 220 heads. You can still use stud mounted rockers and make tons of power.
I was worried going much bigger would slow down port velocity too much for a mostly street car,but I will look into it further for sure. I don't want to leave too much hp/tq sitting on the table.
I figured my dual plane intake may be a choke point,but I don't plan on hitting 6000~6300 rpm too often.

1968 Butternut Coupe,
421" Dart SHP block
TKO 600 RR
Dutchman 9" w/3.70 US Gear Lightning r&p
Speedtech torque arm,Ridetech HQ coilovers
Global West arms
Budnik wheels

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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 15, 10:26 AM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeike View Post
I have an email into Speier Racing for info on his econo ported Pro-filer head.
I would wait and talk with Chris Speier about your combo. I think he does a lot more than Patriot heads.

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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 15, 10:26 AM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

I'd be looking for 220-245cc heads.
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 15, 01:59 PM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

Pro-Filer 210s would be the heads to get. Maybe even 195's. Wouldn't go bigger than 210 and I wouldn't pay the king's ransom that AFR wants when Pro-Filer's flow just as good.
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 15, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

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Originally Posted by onefiness View Post
Pro-Filer 210s would be the heads to get. Maybe even 195's. Wouldn't go bigger than 210 and I wouldn't pay the king's ransom that AFR wants when Pro-Filer's flow just as good.
This is the email response I got back from Speier,a Pro-filer dealer.

"I have nothing CNC in a straight plug cylinder head.

You could purchase a straight plug as-cast 210cc Pro-Filer."

I'm sure he's busy, and it would probably be best to call and talk details when I'm actually ready to order. I was hoping for a bit more info on what he had available in the email though.

1968 Butternut Coupe,
421" Dart SHP block
TKO 600 RR
Dutchman 9" w/3.70 US Gear Lightning r&p
Speedtech torque arm,Ridetech HQ coilovers
Global West arms
Budnik wheels

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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 15, 03:55 PM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence454 View Post
I would wait and talk with Chris Speier about your combo. I think he does a lot more than Patriot heads.
You are correct! He played MLB for 19 seasons and is now employed by the Cincinatti Reds. Not sure how much he knows about cylinder heads though


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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 15, 04:10 PM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

Good luck getting an answer back from Chad Speier or Winegartner, the two guys that advertise the most about their head work, especially on Pro-Filer. Too busy with their racing customers and they take part in that big Engine Building contest every year (can't remember the name). As cast Pro-Filers nearly flow as much as CNC ported AFR's. Compare the flow numbers. Don't buy into the hype and herd mentality of the people who have bought into the AFR advertising blitz. Most bang for buck is Pro-Filer.

BTW, here's the head Chad recommends for your engine:

Re: Chad Speier has balls
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1986iroc View Post
So with a 383 what would be a good head if you want to grow later like 421ci?

The 195cc Pro-Filer is what I recommend when people ask me that very question. Ultra thick and only downfall is 63cc is about all your going to get flat milled._

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Last edited by onefiness; Jul 10th, 15 at 04:27 PM.
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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 15, 05:00 PM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

I am sure you would be happy with either one. One can't use flow numbers only, as there are other considerations. What would be nice, is for someone to do a real world comparison of these two heads.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/280641651844...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

and

http://www.ebay.com/itm/220866399044...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Build a short block, and run it with one set, then the other. Use the same cam, carb, dyno headers, etc. Back to back in the same conditions. Then a guy could decide if the AFR's merit the extra $405.80.

I have very little experience with aftermarket sbc heads. Perhaps there are other hidden costs.

Lynn
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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 15, 06:19 PM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

Quote:
Originally Posted by onefiness View Post
Pro-Filer 210s would be the heads to get. Maybe even 195's. Wouldn't go bigger than 210 and I wouldn't pay the king's ransom that AFR wants when Pro-Filer's flow just as good.
Or better in most cases
Sorry, I just have an issue with tony holier than thou attitude.

Pro-filer

68 Camaro~LSx ~all motor
1.54 60'--6.95 @ 98.45 660'--10.96 @ 121.53
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 15, 08:52 PM
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Re: Heads for my 421 build

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilodeaulynn View Post
I am sure you would be happy with either one. One can't use flow numbers only, as there are other considerations. What would be nice, is for someone to do a real world comparison of these two heads.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/280641651844...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

and

http://www.ebay.com/itm/220866399044...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Build a short block, and run it with one set, then the other. Use the same cam, carb, dyno headers, etc. Back to back in the same conditions. Then a guy could decide if the AFR's merit the extra $405.80.

I have very little experience with aftermarket sbc heads. Perhaps there are other hidden costs.
Go to Speedtalk or Yellowbullet if you want to read about Pro-Filer and AFR. Its all about velocity, pinch point, and csa of the port. I'll take the guy who did/does the porting for Rehr-Morrison racing and designed the ports for Pro-Filer, Darin Morgan. Buy the Pro-Filer, get a better head than AFR, and use the $400 bucks you save for something else on your car.
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