Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 16, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

Well, no sooner did i post a video of my new engine, did my oil drain pan decide to live in 'Glitter City'. See it here:

Pan_zps2wqjluqn.jpg Photo by cv2065 | Photobucket

A couple of things. The glitter in the pan is silver in color, and cannot be felt between my fingers. It is not a ferrous metal, as none of it would stick to a strong magnet. This would be the second oil change after running for 20 and 25 minute intervals, as the first oil drain had some in it as well. I cut the filter open and it is 99.9% clean with no visible debris, bar a couple of very fine silver flecks.

Oil pressure is 60-65psi cold and 15-20psi warm. Temp sets steady at 180-190 degrees when at operating temp. There is no knocking or any unusual sounds coming from the rockers. Engine sounds great. I posted a video earlier today.

Am i losing my bearings here or should I change the oil again, run and then drain to see if the glitter begins to dissipate?

67 Black RS Coupe, 383, M21 & 10 Bolt Posi. Edelbrock E-Tech 170 Heads, 2204 Roller Cam, Air Gap Intake.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 16, 06:49 PM
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

Your signature indicates a roller cam, is there any chance of these specs linked to fuel pump lobe failure or cast cam failure? Your break-in post indicated you were running a hyd cam, did you mean non-roller? Burnt hyd lobe?

I believe the only way you will find out is to pull this motor back out and open it up to check the bottom end unless you think the problem could be elsewhere. Others may not agree but I would pull and inspect.
Would it matter if I asked if you crank was cast or forged?

Don
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Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 16, 07:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

Don - it's a roller cam and the crank is cast (SCAT 9000). I suppose anything is possible at this point. I just pulled the fuel pump last night and there was nothing irregular about the pushrod. Fuel pressure does not seem to be an issue the way it is running. I thought about pulling the distributor and see if the gears were chewed up at all.

I'm a little puzzled as it would seem that if there was a major issue, I'd see it in the way the engine was running.

When I bought the car a couple of years back, the engine had recently been rebuilt by a local shop, and I saw glitter in the drain pan that cleared up after a few oil changes. Not sure if that will happen here, but obviously don't want to have to tear it apart if I don't need to.

67 Black RS Coupe, 383, M21 & 10 Bolt Posi. Edelbrock E-Tech 170 Heads, 2204 Roller Cam, Air Gap Intake.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 16, 07:04 PM
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

I think its definitely worth pulling the distributor and checking the distributor gear, takes only moments and it will be one more item to cross off the potential list. Is your cam core billet or cast?

69 Camaro Z/28 RS, original Azure Turquoise, M21 & 3.73 12-bolt posi. NOM 406ci, AFR 210 heads, Straub hyd. roller cam & Dynatech 1-3/4" > 1-7/8" headers, QuickFuel 750 Annular. Photos at:
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 16, 07:12 PM
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

Hate to see you ruin that 9000 crank. After looking at the dist gears, you may know more but I am sure the uncertainty will set in and you pull the motor. Take you time, as some of this could have already been in process of happening since you know little of this motor.

If this is a roller cam , there must be some means of thrust movement so, that's another area to explore. You could have a soft cam button that got eaten somehow.

Don
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Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 16, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by NH69Z28RS View Post
I think its definitely worth pulling the distributor and checking the distributor gear, takes only moments and it will be one more item to cross off the potential list. Is your cam core billet or cast?
I'll pull the distributor tonight. The cam is cast and is hardened steel or iron.

67 Black RS Coupe, 383, M21 & 10 Bolt Posi. Edelbrock E-Tech 170 Heads, 2204 Roller Cam, Air Gap Intake.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 16, 07:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

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Originally Posted by zdld17 View Post
Hate to see you ruin that 9000 crank. After looking at the dist gears, you may know more but I am sure the uncertainty will set in and you pull the motor. Take you time, as some of this could have already been in process of happening since you know little of this motor.

If this is a roller cam , there must be some means of thrust movement so, that's another area to explore. You could have a soft cam button that got eaten somehow.
Don - this is actually a motor that I built from a new roller block. I still have the original engine that my car came with in the car. I was going to replace it with this one for a little more power. I checked the cam thrust movement a few weeks back and it was within specs.

Hate to see the crank get eaten as well. Is there a chance that this is break in pains and will relieve itself as my original engine did? I see a lot of conflicting info when this topic comes up, but of course it's all subjective as every situation a different.

67 Black RS Coupe, 383, M21 & 10 Bolt Posi. Edelbrock E-Tech 170 Heads, 2204 Roller Cam, Air Gap Intake.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 16, 07:35 PM
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

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Originally Posted by cv2065 View Post
I'll pull the distributor tonight. The cam is cast and is hardened steel or iron.
Last comp 8-432-8 cast roller I had was identified to me by Comp as being "austertempered" material (you guys can correct my spelling if it pleases you) meaning special cast . The lobes flaked and the fuel pump lobe wiped out.

This was one reason I suggested at least the oil filter being opened up before you cranked as it may have told you what was going on before you went any further but what's done is done, hopefully you can salvage and move forward.

Shouldn't take much , just pull motor and check bottom end unless you find dist gear or cam gear pieces. What dist gear were you running? Cast iron?
In any case , a cleaning would be due, and I mean into all oil galleys.

Don
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Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 16, 08:05 PM
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdld17 View Post
Last comp 8-432-8 cast roller I had was identified to me by Comp as being "austertempered" material (you guys can correct my spelling if it pleases you) meaning special cast . The lobes flaked and the fuel pump lobe wiped out.

This was one reason I suggested at least the oil filter being opened up before you cranked as it may have told you what was going on before you went any further but what's done is done, hopefully you can salvage and move forward.

Shouldn't take much , just pull motor and check bottom end unless you find dist gear or cam gear pieces. What dist gear were you running? Cast iron?
In any case , a cleaning would be due, and I mean into all oil galleys.
The word is austempered. Took me awhile to find it.

"A heat treatment for ferrous alloys in which a part is quenched from the austenitizing temperature at a rate fast enough to avoid formation of ferrite or pearlite and then held at a temperature just above Ms until transformation to bainite is complete. Although designated as bainite in both austempered steel and austempered ductile iron (ADI), austempered steel consists of two phase mixtures containing ferrite and carbide, while austempered ductile iron consists of two phase mixtures containing ferrite and austenite."

Don
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Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 16, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

Thanks Don. Edelbrock refers to their cams as hardened steel or iron. Not sure if that is the same as the comp cams material that you reference. If the fuel pump lobe is wasted or lobes flaked, would those be ferrous in the pan?

The distributor gear is cast iron.

67 Black RS Coupe, 383, M21 & 10 Bolt Posi. Edelbrock E-Tech 170 Heads, 2204 Roller Cam, Air Gap Intake.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 21st, 16, 06:22 AM
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

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Originally Posted by cv2065 View Post
Thanks Don. Edelbrock refers to their cams as hardened steel or iron. Not sure if that is the same as the comp cams material that you reference. If the fuel pump lobe is wasted or lobes flaked, would those be ferrous in the pan?

The distributor gear is cast iron.
When the brass fuel pump rod failed, I didn't pull the motor for that immediately, but when I checked the dist gear, I did open it all up . When I pulled the cam, I found the flakes out of the cam lobe. I was running comp retro rollers. I did pull the motor and cleaned all out, even oil galleys. Being an old Saturday nite racer, it was normal for me to break or have problem on Saturday and pull all apart on Sunday morning to assess.

Comp couldn't give me a definite cause of he cam fail. It was then I called UD Harold and discussed. He felt that my rollers could be bouncing due to not enough spring pressure as I was using Comps recommended setting which I understood well as I didn't run a rev kit..

Harold recommended about the same cam (+- ) but on a 112 lobe center in billet. He also recommended higher spring pressure at 155#@ 1.8100". All if not most of Harolds cam designs have a slower closing ramps, which is also suppose to keep rollers on the lobe. Seems to be a characteristic of his designs and Lunati as well as others he has had his had in designing. Same as his EverWear dist gears that allows you to use stock melonized iron gears on dist.
I went with the roller tip fuel pump rod from there.
Have you pulled the dist?

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 21st, 16, 06:53 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdld17 View Post
Have you pulled the dist?
Pulled it last night. See links below:

IMG_0187_zpsmcur8gsy.jpg Photo by cv2065 | Photobucket

IMG_0188_zpsxihrhdbo.jpg Photo by cv2065 | Photobucket

If you look to the bottom third of the drive you can see some wear in both pics, where the black coloring has worn off. The drive is highly magnetic, which would suggest that the glitter in the pan is not from this, but the wear exposes a silver metal. Does this mean that the core of the drive might be iron, but the outer material is some other non-ferrous metal?

I've only had about an hour of run time on this distributor, so not sure exactly how much wear I should seeing, and if this is 'normal' or not.

67 Black RS Coupe, 383, M21 & 10 Bolt Posi. Edelbrock E-Tech 170 Heads, 2204 Roller Cam, Air Gap Intake.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 21st, 16, 07:22 AM
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

I am seeing a shiny spot deep in the root of the gear, making me think the cam gear is thinner and wearing deeper? Remember these mating surfaces are oil by mist in the bottom end. There is a old timers trick to a better oiling method but don't think thats your issue at this time.
Both mating surfaces are alike or should and the wearing section I would think would be like a ring gear /pinion tooth contact, about the center of the tooth. I had one worse that this, the tooth was worn in half, surprising it did not break.

All said, you have flakes/specks in oil and its concerning as you said they weren't there before start up?

I suggest digging deeper if not pulling the motor and put on stand, start looking at bearings. If you don't find anything, then clean it all up, even take the oil pump apart, keeping the gears matched and wash out.
It would not surprise me if you didn't find anything.
What about the cam wear button or plate? Cam gear to block surface wear? Do you have a rigid timing cover like a billet Cloyes with the hex-adjust bearing cover?

I would bet Big Dave has had a hand in stuff like this, maybe he will chime in.

Don
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Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 21st, 16, 07:50 AM
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

Chad, something else to look at is how much load the oil pump is pulling off that cam and dist drive.
I have seen guys set a dist down into the block, never to check to see if the dist is not stacking on top of the oil pump. This can be easily checked and if necessary, spacers or shims can be added to the bottom of the dist base on the intake. One way to find out is to set the dist down without a gasket on the oil pump shaft and look for excessive gap between the intake and dist mounting. Understand what I am saying?

You can also see this in the lower end cover of the oil pump plate where the driven gear is cutting into that bottom plate, thus metal shavings appear. Just a thought.

Don
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Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old Aug 21st, 16, 07:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Losing a Bearing or Two or Three?...Ugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdld17 View Post
All said, you have flakes/specks in oil and its concerning as you said they weren't there before start up?

I suggest digging deeper if not pulling the motor and put on stand, start looking at bearings. If you don't find anything, then clean it all up, even take the oil pump apart, keeping the gears matched and wash out.
It would not surprise me if you didn't find anything.
What about the cam wear button or plate? Cam gear to block surface wear? Do you have a rigid timing cover like a billet Cloyes with the hex-adjust bearing cover?
The engine is currently on a test stand and everything is new from block up. I've got about an hour of run time on the stand, and into my second oil change. The flakes have been there in the oil drain pan both times.

I have a cam plate, but not sure how to check it or the cam gear to block surface wear without tearing the front end apart? Timing cover is simplistic, as it is a one piece Edelbrock cover, so not much help there.

67 Black RS Coupe, 383, M21 & 10 Bolt Posi. Edelbrock E-Tech 170 Heads, 2204 Roller Cam, Air Gap Intake.
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