Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1? - Team Camaro Tech
Engine General Engine Discussion.

View Poll Results: Manifolds or headers on a ZL-1 build?
Stock CBB manifolds? 6 37.50%
Hooker headers 2457? 10 62.50%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 16, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Hi,
As Im new to this with building a new engine, a ZL-1, for my 69 Camaro Im a bit ambivalent regarding what to use for the exhaust....stock manifolds or Hooker 2457 long headers?
As I understand the ZL-1 originally came with the stock CBB manifolds but typically day 2 change was to go with headers for performance reasons. Im just gonna drive my car for shows and sometimes do some street race, just for fun!
I have Hedman Hedders HTC long tube on my 355 CSB today and I'm happy with how they perform and sound. The rest of the exhaust is a 2" steel tubing with large Flowmaster mufflers, its a deep muscle car sound from it!
My plan is to keep this existing system when I change to the ZL-1 engine but should I go with the manifolds or the Hooker headers....?

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Regards from Hakan in Sweden.
1969 Camaro X44, hugger orange, 427 ZL-1, TH350, 4:10 12 bolt Posi, RPO Z87, black/white houndstooth, 14" steel wheels & dog dish, 02D built

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 16, 07:46 AM
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

I would go with the headers on your build. May also want to consider shorties for better ground clearance
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 16, 08:00 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega$69 View Post
I would go with the headers on your build. May also want to consider shorties for better ground clearance
Thanks for quick answer, John!


Im no longer able to edit my thread above so I had to clarify some stuff first. Im using the #077 heads with the D-shape exhaust ports. Can I use stock manifold on them also?


I also thinking of mounting the chambered exhaust in the future and that's easier when the stock manifolds are there, isn't it?
Does Hooker have a short header based on the 2457, or with similar performance?


Which are your best argument for the headers, John?

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Regards from Hakan in Sweden.
1969 Camaro X44, hugger orange, 427 ZL-1, TH350, 4:10 12 bolt Posi, RPO Z87, black/white houndstooth, 14" steel wheels & dog dish, 02D built

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 16, 09:14 AM
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hgger69 View Post
Thanks for quick answer, John!


Im no longer able to edit my thread above so I had to clarify some stuff first. Im using the #077 heads with the D-shape exhaust ports. Can I use stock manifold on them also?


I also thinking of mounting the chambered exhaust in the future and that's easier when the stock manifolds are there, isn't it?
Does Hooker have a short header based on the 2457, or with similar performance?


Which are your best argument for the headers, John?
I've always liked headers for the sound and added performance. Now days I'm not that concerned with picking up the few extra ponies.

I have chambered exhaust on my Z28 with stock manifolds. But the car is #s match so I'm forced to resist mods. Lol

Would not be hard to run chambered to LT headers. For me it would more depend on the under hood look you want.

I have no clue on the heads you mention but I don't think the D shape is an issue with the headers you mention
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 16, 12:08 PM
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

I have D ports on my 502. Regular round port headers were recommended still. Is there another option? I used Doug's D320. I'm sure they wouldn't be appropriate for the look you're going for though. I love original in certain situations, but if it's a ZL1 I'd still put headers on it.

Here's my exhaust ports.


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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 16, 07:03 PM
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

I have never had headers on my cars (not legal in pure stock). The corvette right hand manifold flows a lot better than the camaro log manifold. I had initially put on the corvette manifold and then was forced to change for the race. I could feel the increase in low end torque on the street with the camaro log.

The point being, headers Will kill some of your bottom end torque, depending on tires, this will help. If you are going after the stock look, then there is no choice, but if that is not a deal breaker, then hooker here you come.

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 16, 08:11 PM
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Headers for sure. The GM Camaro log manifolds are rather restrictive, much more so than the Corvette 396/427/454 style are for 65 thru 73? A couple of more thoughts on your build, I'd seriously think about using the 1969 396 / 375 horse cam instead of the ZL-1 cam. The ZL-1 cam is way too radical unless you have your foot through the floorboards and are shifting above 6500. Using the 375 horse cam will give you lots more cranking compression, and also a whole lot more mid-range, without much loss on top end. Last couple of thought, the chambered exhaust is even more restrictive than the factory log manifolds. I'd go with mandrel bent pipes, an X pipe, and something like the stainless ultra flow mufflers under the back seat (no way on the sideways muffler either). Last thing, chambered pipes are to danged noisy for my taste.

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 16, 08:50 PM
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Hall Hakan

Be careful with the BB and the Hooker 2457's.

Do you have Power Steering ?

I went thru 4 sets of Headers.
Are you replacing the 355 SB ?
You got it on the BB Offset and Engine Mounts/ Crossmember.

I had 2 sets of the Hooker 2457's, sent them Back.

If the ZL-1 is Stock Block Dimensions, you might want to "Mock Up" if you can First to be sure what you buy fits.

I went with the Doug's D320. ( See Pic ), 2457's will not fit like this.

Here is my Post, it has allot of Info and Pic's.

https://www.camaros.net/forums/18-eng...gs-d320-r.html

If you have Power Steering, the Hooker Super Comp 2205 should clear the P/S Box and Lines.
They need to clear your "Z" bar for the Clutch too.

I like the Collector Flange Bolt Pattern better on the Doug's.

I voted for the Headers too.

Good Luck.
and God Yul coming up !

Timmy Hallstrom
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old Dec 1st, 16, 02:00 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega$69 View Post
I've always liked headers for the sound and added performance. Now days I'm not that concerned with picking up the few extra ponies.

I have chambered exhaust on my Z28 with stock manifolds. But the car is #s match so I'm forced to resist mods. Lol

Would not be hard to run chambered to LT headers. For me it would more depend on the under hood look you want.

I have no clue on the heads you mention but I don't think the D shape is an issue with the headers you mention

Thanks, John. Good to know about your choice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkX66 View Post
I have D ports on my 502. Regular round port headers were recommended still. Is there another option? I used Doug's D320. I'm sure they wouldn't be appropriate for the look you're going for though. I love original in certain situations, but if it's a ZL1 I'd still put headers on it.

Here's my exhaust ports.

Nice lookin motor there, Dave! I haven't decided what look I'm going yet, that's why this thread!

_________________________________________________
Regards from Hakan in Sweden.
1969 Camaro X44, hugger orange, 427 ZL-1, TH350, 4:10 12 bolt Posi, RPO Z87, black/white houndstooth, 14" steel wheels & dog dish, 02D built

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old Dec 1st, 16, 02:03 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1971ls6 View Post
I have never had headers on my cars (not legal in pure stock). The corvette right hand manifold flows a lot better than the camaro log manifold. I had initially put on the corvette manifold and then was forced to change for the race. I could feel the increase in low end torque on the street with the camaro log.

The point being, headers Will kill some of your bottom end torque, depending on tires, this will help. If you are going after the stock look, then there is no choice, but if that is not a deal breaker, then hooker here you come.

Thanks for your experience, Morgan...much appreciated!
What differs between the Camaro and Corvette manifold then?

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Regards from Hakan in Sweden.
1969 Camaro X44, hugger orange, 427 ZL-1, TH350, 4:10 12 bolt Posi, RPO Z87, black/white houndstooth, 14" steel wheels & dog dish, 02D built

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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old Dec 1st, 16, 02:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyno jonn View Post
Headers for sure. The GM Camaro log manifolds are rather restrictive, much more so than the Corvette 396/427/454 style are for 65 thru 73? A couple of more thoughts on your build, I'd seriously think about using the 1969 396 / 375 horse cam instead of the ZL-1 cam. The ZL-1 cam is way too radical unless you have your foot through the floorboards and are shifting above 6500. Using the 375 horse cam will give you lots more cranking compression, and also a whole lot more mid-range, without much loss on top end. Last couple of thought, the chambered exhaust is even more restrictive than the factory log manifolds. I'd go with mandrel bent pipes, an X pipe, and something like the stainless ultra flow mufflers under the back seat (no way on the sideways muffler either). Last thing, chambered pipes are to danged noisy for my taste.
Loads of god input there, Jon...great!
Regarding the cam, its not the ZL-1 cam were using, its a Crane 10313 with this data:
Rough idle, performance usage, good mid range HP, bracket racing, auto trans w/3000+ converter, 3800- 4200 cruise RPM, 10.0 to 11.5 compression ratio advised. Good w/Roots supercharger, 15 lbs. max. boost w/8.0 max. compression ratio advised.
Lift: Intake @Cam 3347 @Valve 569
Exhaust @ Cam 350 @Valve 595
Rocker Arm Ratio 1.7

Cam Timing: TAPPET @ .004
Lift: Opens Closes ADV Duration
Intake 34 BTDC 80 ABDC 294
Exhaust 87 BBDC 37 ATDC 304


Recommended RPM range with matching components
Minimum RPM 3200
Maximum RPM 6800
Valve Float 7200

Cam Timing: TAPPET @.050
Lift: Opens Closes Max Lift Duration
Intake 10 BTDC 48 ABDC 109 238
Exhaust 63 BBDC 5 ATDC 119 248


Regarding the exhaust I forgot to mention that I have a H-pipe also.
I've also heard that the chambered system is getting more noise than effect out from it....but it is rather cool, cant be denied!

_________________________________________________
Regards from Hakan in Sweden.
1969 Camaro X44, hugger orange, 427 ZL-1, TH350, 4:10 12 bolt Posi, RPO Z87, black/white houndstooth, 14" steel wheels & dog dish, 02D built

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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old Dec 1st, 16, 02:38 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by french69ssrs View Post
Hall Hakan

Be careful with the BB and the Hooker 2457's.

Do you have Power Steering ?

I went thru 4 sets of Headers.
Are you replacing the 355 SB ?
You got it on the BB Offset and Engine Mounts/ Crossmember.

I had 2 sets of the Hooker 2457's, sent them Back.

If the ZL-1 is Stock Block Dimensions, you might want to "Mock Up" if you can First to be sure what you buy fits.

I went with the Doug's D320. ( See Pic ), 2457's will not fit like this.

Here is my Post, it has allot of Info and Pic's.

https://www.camaros.net/forums/18-eng...gs-d320-r.html

If you have Power Steering, the Hooker Super Comp 2205 should clear the P/S Box and Lines.
They need to clear your "Z" bar for the Clutch too.

I like the Collector Flange Bolt Pattern better on the Doug's.

I voted for the Headers too.

Good Luck.
and God Yul coming up !

Timmy Hallstrom
Great to read about your experience, Timmy! Are you btw somehow Swedish related?...cause your name certainly have an aura of swedishness round it!

Yes, were replacing the 355 with the ZL-1 but were going to change the motor mounts to BB ones.
No, I don't have powers steering and were going to use an automatic so no problem with clutch bars...!
The reason why were considering the Hooker headers is that they were very common during that period when the ZL-1 was new and I want that period correct look for my car...

My big questions are:
- Are the stock manifolds still going to work ok with my exhaust setup with 2" tubing, H-pipe and large Flowmaster mufflers without any large setback in heat transfer or loss in effect?
- Our version of the ZL-1 will produce around 500+ hp, with the #077 heads, the Crane cam and ICON pistons so I really don't need that extra hp that the headers could provide but are there other issues?

_________________________________________________
Regards from Hakan in Sweden.
1969 Camaro X44, hugger orange, 427 ZL-1, TH350, 4:10 12 bolt Posi, RPO Z87, black/white houndstooth, 14" steel wheels & dog dish, 02D built

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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old Dec 1st, 16, 04:35 AM
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

It almost seems you are leaning towards the manifold direction. Obviously they will be more restricting than the headers so I don't see why you would have any issues at all mounting up to the rest of the exhaust. That being said, she will surely breathe alot easier with the headers and I would add the v-band type of connection at the collectors for that nice clean look and clearance if you decided to to the headers. Good luck in your decision

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old Dec 1st, 16, 05:15 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittpens24 View Post
It almost seems you are leaning towards the manifold direction. Obviously they will be more restricting than the headers so I don't see why you would have any issues at all mounting up to the rest of the exhaust. That being said, she will surely breathe alot easier with the headers and I would add the v-band type of connection at the collectors for that nice clean look and clearance if you decided to to the headers. Good luck in your decision

Its easy to just go with what everybody else does on a muscle car and that's headers....I want to get the arguments from both side from you car guys... cause I like to be different but not want to do anything stupid...yet!


The exhaust system and the 355 is still mounted on the car so I have plenty of time to decide and a manifold can easily be changed to a headers or opposite!
I agree with you regarding the V-clamp, I really love them!

_________________________________________________
Regards from Hakan in Sweden.
1969 Camaro X44, hugger orange, 427 ZL-1, TH350, 4:10 12 bolt Posi, RPO Z87, black/white houndstooth, 14" steel wheels & dog dish, 02D built

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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old Dec 1st, 16, 06:17 AM
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Re: Manifold or headers on 1969 ZL-1?

Hi Hakan

Yes, my Dad's Parents both from Gothenburg.
My Sister still makes Kanelbullar and Bullar !

I went on your Website, a Beautiful Camaro, Great Color.

I just want to throw a few Ideas your way. I have only done 1 car, I am not in the business of turning these cars over and making great Muscle cars in different variations.

Are you trying to Recreate the ZL-1 from the Factory ?
How Close are you willing to Stick to the ZL-1 ?

You seem to be Blending a few New/ Modern updates to a 1969 Install.

I did the same thing.
My car is from France - Do I want to Restore, Drag Race it, Mod it, Pro Touring or do it my way, Again, I call it my "High School Restomod"

If you do it right, People will be Blown Away !

No Power Steering ?
Why not, I understand the Aluminum weighs less ( 150 lbs ) but if your running the Period Correct Bias Ply Tires, why not Add P/S.
I have the Goodyear Polyglas GT E60-15 on the Front, I switched my 69 P/S Box with one from a 71 Z28. Steers Great.
ZL-1's W/O P/S, again, only if you trying to Recreate the ZL-1 from the Factory.

Stock Manifolds will work, we know they Fit, you can get Adapters for you Piping, as far as the Hookers, the 2205's are the "Super Comp" headers, Built a bit better, better Clearance and Tuned.

Doug's have been around for over 50 Years too.

The Headers give you Better Performance and Sound Better, Cast Iron Manifolds will Soften the Exhaust Pulses, Again, If you are going Stock, that's a No Brainer - Manifolds. Boring - Sorry

I put a 700R4 in my car, thought it would be a great setup. The car is fun to drive, Power is there,
however I am in the process of getting Quotes for a Tremec TKO600 Standard Transmission swap kit.

My car is a Blast to drive but I enjoy Driving my 02 Jetta TDI 5 Speed just as much. I do realize Running it up thru the Gears will be more fun.

Timmy
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