Muncie in 69 - Team Camaro Tech
Engine General Engine Discussion.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 16th, 17, 04:53 PM Thread Starter
Apprentice
Tom
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 29
Muncie in 69

I installed a Muncie m 20 today replacing Saginaw 4 speed. Everything went fine till starting to install crossmember. Seems the transmission mount holes didn't line up about- 1/4" off to pdriver's side. Finally got bolts installed after prying on bolt holes. I thought Sags and Muncie all mounted same. Don't know if the subframe connectors moved or not. Anyone have this problem before? I have correct crossmember which is about 1/2" offset to pass side since it is a big block. Any ideas? Don't want car to be tracking offset going down road. Mr Muncie hope things went good with surgery and am going to call you when complete with changeover. I bought this transmission from you back in Dec. Thanks, Tom. Also new yoke is about 1/2" too long but going to take care of that tomorrow.
ttoptom is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 16th, 17, 08:36 PM
Senior Tech
Mark
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,009
Garage
Re: Muncie in 69

Sounds like your trans and drive shaft will be on an angle. Not good.

Mark 70 Z28 M22 3.73 Z21 Z87 - Lunati 20120121 Roller Cam

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
COPO is offline  
post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 17, 05:31 AM Thread Starter
Apprentice
Tom
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 29
Re: Muncie in 69

That's same as I was thinking. Going to get some measurements today and see if I can figure problem. Looks like I could reverse crossmember and things would be good but wouldn't have offset needed for BB. Could transmision mount be made and spaced differently on Saginaw and Muncie. Everything I read said both trans were same physical outside dimensions. Thanks!
ttoptom is offline  
 
post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 17, 07:00 AM
Super Moderator
Bess-68's rule
 
Everett#2390's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Va Beach VA
Posts: 31,770
Garage
Re: Muncie in 69

This 1/4 inch is normal.
Think of the big picture - subframe engine brackets, engine mount pads, trans mount pad, crossmember and subframe holes.

All items have a clearance diameter for the bolt diameter used, min 1/64 inch difference.
If tone bolt/hole is off, do the trigonometry for the length from the offset to the trans holes.
As said, the 1/4 inch is fine. Also, consider when these cars were built, there was no CAD - manual.

Give a man a rescued dog for the health of both their souls. May 2017 ROTM Winner - Thank you!
'
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CUBS - 2016 World Series Champions - Thank you, Joe Madden enjoy your next chapter.
Everett#2390 is offline  
post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 17, 07:09 AM
Banned
Rob
 
satz28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NW Suburban Chicago Area
Posts: 8,283
Re: Muncie in 69

Quote:
Originally Posted by Everett#2390 View Post
This 1/4 inch is normal.
Think of the big picture - subframe engine brackets, engine mount pads, trans mount pad, crossmember and subframe holes.

All items have a clearance diameter for the bolt diameter used, min 1/64 inch difference.
If tone bolt/hole is off, do the trigonometry for the length from the offset to the trans holes.
As said, the 1/4 inch is fine. Also, consider when these cars were built, there was no CAD - manual.
I would loosen up the bolts that hold the cross member to the sub frame, and then tighten everything back up. This way you have some play to work with.
satz28 is offline  
post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 17, 08:45 AM Thread Starter
Apprentice
Tom
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 29
Re: Muncie in 69

I had thought same but the old came out so easy thought something was wrong. Gotta cut tunnel alittle to clear shifter but then I'll loosen everything and try again. Just didn't want to cause big trouble later. Thanks
ttoptom is offline  
post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 17, 10:18 AM
Apprentice
Will
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posts: 16
Re: Muncie in 69

I'm in a similar situation with my new TKO600. Mine is far enough off to where only one mount hole lines up between the cross member and trans. The old T10 that came out was aligned on the stock cross member but I believe that spacers were installed on one side of the trans to engine bolts for correction. In hindsight, that could have been what killed the old T10 and didn't think too much about it as I was taking it apart. I was going to take mine to a shop after I get my front suspension and disc brakes converted and have them measure everything out. I noticed that someone replaced the passenger motor mount...that's my first suspect. I also noticed that my passenger subframe connector has one bolt that won't tighten down....could be another suspect.
CR68Camaro is offline  
post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 17, 12:05 PM
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The Bluegrass State
Posts: 3,369
Re: Muncie in 69

Quote:
Originally Posted by CR68Camaro View Post
I'm in a similar situation with my new TKO600. Mine is far enough off to where only one mount hole lines up between the cross member and trans. The old T10 that came out was aligned on the stock cross member but I believe that spacers were installed on one side of the trans to engine bolts for correction. In hindsight, that could have been what killed the old T10 and didn't think too much about it as I was taking it apart. I was going to take mine to a shop after I get my front suspension and disc brakes converted and have them measure everything out. I noticed that someone replaced the passenger motor mount...that's my first suspect. I also noticed that my passenger subframe connector has one bolt that won't tighten down....could be another suspect.
Are you saying that they actually had something wedged between the bell housing and block to shift the tranny over? Yeah, if so, no wonder it failed. Probably wallowed out the pilot bushing and destroyed the front bearing.

When you install the TKO, it is extremely important to make sure the bell housing opening is in tolerance with the allowable runout for the front bearing retainer. If not, the input shaft bearing will fail. The TKO's are far less tolerant of misalignments than the old Muncie's and T-10's.

1967 RS/SS 350 Conv - triple black, 4sp, tach & gauges

1969 VN-built RS/SS 396 Conv - Garnet Red/Black, 4-sp, tach & gauges
RSSSfanatic is offline  
post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 17, 12:06 PM
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The Bluegrass State
Posts: 3,369
Re: Muncie in 69

Pretty sure the big blocks used different motor mounts to shift the engine towards the passenger side to make room for the brake booster. That's why the big block crossmembers were different - to compensate for this. Wondering if you have the correct motor mounts.

1967 RS/SS 350 Conv - triple black, 4sp, tach & gauges

1969 VN-built RS/SS 396 Conv - Garnet Red/Black, 4-sp, tach & gauges
RSSSfanatic is offline  
post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 17, 01:33 PM
Senior Tech
Brian
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: NE Ga
Posts: 812
Garage
Re: Muncie in 69

Just for clarification, you are saying your car has a BB in it that was running a Saginaw 4 speed with a BB Tranny crossmember....Correct? Do you know if you have BB engine frame stands and motor mounts on the car? Is it an original BB car that someone put a Saginaw in or is the car origially a SB/Saginaw car? Just tryingt o get a clear picture in my head. thanks.

69 Hugger Orange 396 M20 3:31
BRICO69 is offline  
post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 17, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
Apprentice
Tom
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 29
Re: Muncie in 69

Yes that's what I have. A 454 with Saginaw installed by previous owner. I checked when first getting car to make sure I had the offset motor mounts...which I do. Also have the offset crossmember. It's a 74 motor so thinking previous owner found 454 out of truck somewhere and had a Sag laying around. First Camaro since 71 and been working on my 68 Vette for last 6 yrs but finished and always liked looks of 69's. Looked for 1 1/2 yrs to find this one but knew I was getting a pieced together clone unlike Vette which was all original. Good body, suspension, brakes and interior so no complaints. just enjoy working with what I got. Thanks for replies, Tom
ttoptom is offline  
post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 18th, 17, 07:11 AM
Senior Tech
Brian
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: NE Ga
Posts: 812
Garage
Re: Muncie in 69

Seems like it should fit without any issues. Saginaw and Muncie tranny mount are the same. I have never had a Saginaw installed on a BB cross member with a BB engine but you say that is how the car was and worked/lined up ok. As far as trimming your tranny tunnel, I would say that if you got the correct Hurst shifter, shifter mount plate & BB linkage you should not have to cut your tunnel. I would think doing what others have mentioned should work. Loosen up all the bolts including motor mounts and see if you can get it wiggled around enough to fit better. good Luck and let us know how you make out.

69 Hugger Orange 396 M20 3:31
BRICO69 is offline  
post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 19th, 17, 04:16 AM Thread Starter
Apprentice
Tom
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 29
Re: Muncie in 69

Doing a little measuring after tranny in and found Sag tranny is same as Muncie but tailshaft housing was 1" longer moving shifter back 1". No problem just trimmed a little off rear opening and fits fine. Going to let fitment go for now till I start and run car to see if alignment is going to cause any problems. Thanks for all suggestions.
ttoptom is offline  
post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 17, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
Apprentice
Tom
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 29
Re: Muncie in 69

Ok, got car on road today and noticed pretty good vibration in all gears. Didn't have time to test with clutch in, cruising in neutral, etc. Gonna try again tomorrow if weather permits and helper here in case I break down but do you think this could be caused having to force transmission towards driver side to get mounted to crossmember causing driveline angles to be off? Everything is for BB which includes the offset crossmember and different engine mounts. No vibration with Saginaw and only diff was new clutch assembly (Centerforce 1) and forcing transmission to line up mounting holes. I would think new clutch, PP and flywheel would all be balanced from factory. Had to shorten driveshaft 1" and it was balanced after shortening. Any ideas? Thanks, Tom
ttoptom is offline  
post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 17, 02:31 PM
Senior Tech
Brian
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: NE Ga
Posts: 812
Garage
Re: Muncie in 69

I would think if the clutch/pressure plate were installed correctly along with the bellhousing it should be ok. Did the tranny slide in the bellhousing "normal" or did you have to do anything to make it engage? I'm no drive shaft expert but I have read about clocking the yokes correctly so you don't get a vibration. I would say if you got the shaft shortened professionally that they did it correctly. I find it hard to beleive that pushing the tranny over a bit to get the crossmember bolts in would cause the issue. (Maybe I'm wrong). Sounds like the tests you have planned will point you in the right direction. I'm sure others will respond and help you out better. Let us know what you find after the tests.

69 Hugger Orange 396 M20 3:31
BRICO69 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome