Ignition sw case Positively charged - Team Camaro Tech
Electrical & Wiring Troubleshooting electrical.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 22nd, 09, 11:47 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
John Fivian
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 786
Ignition sw case Positively charged

68 Camaro, 327 w/ MSD 6AL, Blaster II coil and stock ignition switch.

Background - Was performing the "spark check" test with the MSD because hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to start the car for the first time since I've owned it (8 years). My ignition switch is hanging out of the dash where the instrument panel should be, because I'm waiting on the nut that retains it in the dash. So, when I moved the ignition switch, it touched the dash and arced, big time. I confirmed with a test light that the case of the ignition switch is being positively charged, somehow. Its only that way in the "on" position, not when its in the accessory, off or crank positions. That leads me to believe that the pink wire is at play, but how the heck would the case of the ingnition switch become charged?

Any ideas?

Thanks guy,

John Fivian
68 327
JHunter is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 23rd, 09, 12:08 AM
Senior Tech
jeff
 
1SLOW64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hot and Humid FL
Posts: 1,121
Re: Ignition sw case Positively charged

shorted internally would be my guess

1969 X66 PROJECT:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2002 C5 COUPE ELECTRON BLUE SOLD
1987 BUICK GRAND NATIONAL SOLD
1964 CHEVY II 406 SOLD
1SLOW64 is offline  
post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 23rd, 09, 12:20 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
John Fivian
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 786
Re: Ignition sw case Positively charged

Oh, and I forgot to mention - this is a brand new ignition switch. I just got done going through the entire electrical system, cleaning connections etc and replaced any suspect wires (bad insulation, corrosion etc).

John Fivian
68 327
JHunter is offline  
 
post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 23rd, 09, 07:31 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
John Fivian
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 786
Re: Ignition sw case Positively charged

I just unplugged the switch and checked for continuity between each spade on the back of the switch and the body - nothing. But, it was definitely arcing when plugged in and in the "on" position.
I'm not an electrician, but is it possible that power (+) is jumping from the pink wire to the case internally?
I T'd my MSD's small red wire to the pink wire leaving the ignition switch, I think thats right isn't it? The MSD instructions (6AL) said that the controller needs to have switched power from the ignition, and the only wire I found like that is the pink series of wires. Otherwise the ignition would be on in the accessory position.
Hmmmm, this has got me stumped.

John Fivian
68 327
JHunter is offline  
post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 23rd, 09, 08:34 AM
Super Moderator
Bess-68's rule
 
Everett#2390's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Va Beach VA
Posts: 31,661
Garage
Re: Ignition sw case Positively charged

Could be any connections made inside the ign switch.
A quick check would be to remove the MSD red wire and see what event takes place.
Heavy arc or a light arc, like static electricity?
Only one arc or all the time the body is connected to the dash?

Give a man a rescued dog for the health of both their souls. May 2017 ROTM Winner - Thank you!
'
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CUBS - 2016 World Series Champions - Thank you, Joe Madden enjoy your next chapter.
Everett#2390 is offline  
post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 23rd, 09, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
John Fivian
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 786
Re: Ignition sw case Positively charged

Everett -
I'll try disconnecting the red wire and see what happens. Here's what its done - when I put the key to the run position, which activates the heavy pink wire, the body of the ignition switch arcs big time. It won't jump a 1/2" gap or anything, but its just like touching the positive battery cable to ground, big arc. It only does it in the run position, although to be honest I don't know that I tried it while cranking, its a bit too much to manipulate since the ignition switch isn't fastened to the dash yet.
Here is why I got to this point - I did my spark test with the MSD 6AL, 'broke' the white wire so I could do the test by touching it to ground - which according to the directions should result in a spark from the coil each time you remove the white wire from ground. Well before I could even touch the white wire to ground, the coil was firing. Not just a spark, but a constant arc of sparking, like its firing around 1000 rpm. Nice strong blue spark, and almost constant, hard to tell the gaps between each arc because its firing so fast. This is with the key in the run position, but engine off (obviously since I have the coil lead laying near a ground point). When I do connect the white wire to ground to run the "spark test" per MSD instructions, the arcing stops, and when I remove the white wire from ground it starts again, constant sparking. I assume this isn't right, the directions make it sound like A spark, not a constant spark.
So I don't know which problem I'm chasing, is the ignition switch somehow getting backfed too much power because the MSD is firing the coil w/o a signal, or is my ignition switch (new) somehow telling the coil to fire because I've got something crossed up. The wiring is pretty straight forward, so I don't know how I could a messed it up.
MSD - Heavy red to Battery / Heavy Black to Battery / Small red to Ignition Pink and to Dizzy / White to Dizzy / Orange to + Coil / Black to - Coil. All the other wiring is stock.

Thank you guys - I know this is longish. I was hoping to start the car today for the first time in 8 years, this is killing me! lol

Thanks again

John Fivian
68 327
JHunter is offline  
post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 23rd, 09, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
John Fivian
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 786
Re: Ignition sw case Positively charged

Got the MSD to only fire when the white wire is pulled away from ground, per the MSD Spark Test procedures. I had my battery charger connected to the battery, which I read is a no-no, and apparently was causing my problem. Now with just the battery, it acts correctly.
However -
The body of the ignition switch is still getting power. From the OFF position, when I first move to the ON position, my test light lights up (touching the case of the switch & ground), move to START and it goes off for a second (while moving from the ON to START internal contacts I assume) then lights up again. If I move it back to ON, the light goes off. No light in the ACC position. If I go right back to ON, no light, then to START, it lights again. Now if I wait a couple minutes in the OFF position, then go to ON, it lights again, then to START, it lights up. Same thing over and over. If I move the switch 'rapidly' between OFF - ON - START the test light only comes on in START. But, if I wait a minute it'll come on when I go from OFF to START.

(Test Light on) [Test Light off]
[OFF] (ON) (START) [ON] [OFF] [ACC] [OFF]________________[ON] (START) [ON] (START) [ON] (START) {the blank underline is just to get everything to line up on the screen in sequence, the move from OFF to ON is relatively quick}
[OFF] (ON) (START) [ON] [OFF] [ACC] [OFF] -WAIT A MINUTE - (ON) (START) [ON] (START) [ON] (START)

Its like a charge is building up and somehow passing over to the case of the switch.
I tried disconnecting the small red MSD wire, no effect. I disconnected the red w/ black tracer wire at the horn relay, which also goes to the ignition switch, no effect.
I guess I'll order another switch, but this is brand new and I can't figure out why its doing this, especially since it acts differently when I pause in the OFF position. Somethings screwy.

John Fivian
68 327
JHunter is offline  
post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 23rd, 09, 01:35 PM
Super Moderator
Bess-68's rule
 
Everett#2390's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Va Beach VA
Posts: 31,661
Garage
Re: Ignition sw case Positively charged

I would remove the MSD from the picture and hook up the dist as normal, if running a point dist. This will get you started, no pun intended.

My older MSD, circa 1985, just has the red wire hooked to ign wire for ign 'ON' power.
Org & white to the coil as MSD powers the coil. The point set opens/closes, triggering on the MSD box to generate the current needed to flow through the primary coil winding for spark voltage when points open up.

Give a man a rescued dog for the health of both their souls. May 2017 ROTM Winner - Thank you!
'
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CUBS - 2016 World Series Champions - Thank you, Joe Madden enjoy your next chapter.
Everett#2390 is offline  
post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 23rd, 09, 01:46 PM
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Watertown,NY
Posts: 186
Re: Ignition sw case Positively charged

Dosen't the key buzzer ground thru the ignition switch?
Riley is offline  
post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 23rd, 09, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
John Fivian
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 786
Re: Ignition sw case Positively charged

Riley - There is a ground wire going to the switch door jamb switch, and I checked continuity between the spade that that wire connects to and the switch housing, no dice. Which doesn't make sense to me.

However, I tried the good old stand-by method of shaking the crap out of the switch while watching the test light. The light goes out at some point, both in the ON and START positions when I shake it. I tried a control method of just seeing how long the light would stay lit w/o interferance, and I got tired of watching it. But within a few shakes, both with the key in ON and START, the light would go out.
So, brand new starter switch is being replaced by another brand new switch - lets hope my professional diagnosis turns out to be the problem. The switch should be in my hand in the morning

John Fivian
68 327
JHunter is offline  
post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old Dec 24th, 09, 10:15 AM
Senior Tech
Steiner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lyman, SC
Posts: 8,348
Re: Ignition sw case Positively charged

If you don't want to have to splice into a wire for the MSD power, look on your fuse block and use the spade terminal marked IGN. You'll need put put an inline fuse in the line you run off of it.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
Steiner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome