Possible ground or other RS Headlights - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old May 12th, 10, 10:16 PM Thread Starter
Don
 
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Possible ground or other RS Headlights

Hello,

Please bear with me as this is my first attempt to describe a problem via this web-site.

I own a 1967 Chevy Camaro with a newly installed hide-away headlight kit. This kit appears to work fine. However, when I turn the lights on, turn the key to ignition without starting the car. I then proceed to turn a signal light on (left or right does not matter) and turn the switch for the back-up lights on, the entire car loses power. It takes about 10 to 20 seconds for the power to be restored. As it restores, a clicking can be heard. I believe I have identified this source. It is not the voltage regulator but rather a relay that is located on the other side of the windshield washer reservoir tucked up under the driver's side front quarter panel.

Also when driving, I have an electric fan and an electric fuel pump. I can have my headlights on, but when I put on my turn signal (either right or left) the car loses all power.

Now, I believe I eliminated the alternator as a possible culprit with the following test. First I hooked up the ignition directly to the battery and also the fan. I then proceeded to turn things on like I normally would. The headlights and then the turn signals. The car stayed running but the headlights and signal lights simply died.

I then reconnected everything and ran the car in park at 3,200 rpms. The car not only died but it made some horrendous sounds as it tried to restart. I WONT DO THAT AGAIN!!!!

SO I do not believe it is the alternator.

Now the car has a brand new 427 SBC chevy where it had a summit crate 350 in it before. Also, this car was not originally an RS.

I do not know if my fuse box is set-up correctly. I would like to know if there are any tests I can perform that I might eliminate other possibilities such as the radio? Are there any differences in the standard Camaro fuse box vs a RS fuse box? The hide-away headlight kit was purchased from Ground-Up. I am mentioning them only for purposes of identifying any necessary trouble-shooting requirements with their kit, additional parts that may be required for those who have purchased this kit, and also to let all of you know that this was not used.

I am attaching a picture of my fuse box )located on the left and a fuse box I believe from a Std 67 Chevy Camaro located on the right.

Any comments, suggestions, or requests for additional pictures are welcome.

Thank you for your help

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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 07:38 AM
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Tom
 
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

Don, I'd like to see a photo of your relay board. Unmount it from under the fender. There is a circuit breaker on that board. It has orange and red wires on it. I wonder if anything else is tapped off of this breaker.
Sounds like you have a dead short somewhere south of this when the blinker comes on...

by the way, what part of CT?

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
Don
 
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Cool Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

I live in Middlebury CT. Thanks for your help and I will try to get you that photo. P.S. where are you from? I will be at the show at Naugatuck H.S. on Saturday.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 11:29 AM
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

Live near Boston. Hail from "the quiet corner" of CT.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
Don
 
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

Hello and thanks for your request.

I now have the photos, please look at them and provide any feedback or if necessary and you require additional pictures or a picture highlighting a specific detail please let me know.




In the above picture, the green wires to the left are not attached to this circuit. Also, I could not find a ground. Could you tell me where the ground wire is, if I am missing it or rather if its is just that I do not see it.


This is a picture look at the top circuit in better detail and the bottom picture is just zooming in on the bottom of the first picture.

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
Don
 
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

One other minor detail, I bought the motor and it has a single wire alternator in it. There are some wires currently taped up that would go to this alternator. I have been told that these wires should not be affecting this system
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 02:08 PM
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

Don that looks OK as far as I can tell but compare the wiring at the relays to this link from Retro electro. Then you should be able to rule out this board. http://www.retro-electro.net/FAQ.html
It doesn't matter which is relay#1,2,3 since they are all the same. Just the wiring matters.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 02:11 PM
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

I don't have experience with the single-wire alternators. Somebody else will have to comment on that.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 04:09 PM Thread Starter
Don
 
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

Hey thanks for your help!!!

I am going to replace the RS circuit breaker. It is possible that my problem is with this. Also, I was wondering, do any of the relays require a ground? Lastly, the RS diode may be bad, is there a way of testing this or should it just be replaced?

Again...THANK YOU!!!

Don

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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 07:27 PM
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

Don, It looks like all your components on the relay board are new so I don't suspect the circuit breaker. Even if it is tripping, that's what it's supposed to do if the current draw is too high. The question is why...To test, You could run the car, make the problem happen, then see if the breaker has tripped using a test light.

Another test, I would disconnect one side of that breaker and insulate the wire with electrical tape. That should effectively kill power to the headlight motor system. Then see if your problem persists. I don't really think the RS headlight system is causing the car to die when you put the blinker on. Just trying to isolate the problem.

I don't know an easy way to test the diode. Failed diodes usually short(instead of open) I think. I can email you a schematic of the system. R3 black wire should be grounded.

If everything works OK until you put the blinker on, that's a big clue. Any blinker? Pull the bulbs and see if it still happens. I think something is miswired somewhere. Good luck!

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 10:16 PM Thread Starter
Don
 
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

Thank you again,

I agree with you and all this stuff is new. However, I was not sure if I have a defective part. Also, if you could send me a schematic, my email is [email protected]

I have spent over 40 hours trouble-shooting this problem and I may take the car somewhere. IF you have any pictures as to how the diode is actually set-up they would be greatly appreciated.

Again any help would be great!!!

Thanks

Don
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 10:38 PM Thread Starter
Don
 
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

It is any blinker,

I start the car, electric fuel pump is on. I wait for car to warm up and turn the fan on. I turn the headlights on, opening up the hide-away and then powering the head-lights themselves. I turn the radio on. Lastly, I turn on a turn signal (does not matter if it is the right or left) and POWER GOES OUT!!!

I repeat this process, I start the car, electric fuel pump is on. I wait for car to warm up and turn the fan on. I turn the headlights on, opening up the hide-away and then powering the head-lights themselves. I turn the radio on. Lastly, I turn onback-up light switch and POWER GOES OUT!!!

Occasionally, in order to trip the system initially (when the car has been sitting still for a long period of time with no headlights, blinkers, or reverse lights on), I sometimes have to do this process, I start the car, electric fuel pump is on. I wait for car to warm up and turn the fan on. I turn the headlights on, opening up the hide-away and then powering the head-lights themselves. I turn the radio on. I turn on a turn signal (does not matter if it is the right or left). Lastly, I turn onback-up light switch and POWER GOES OUT!!!

I also have discovered that the order does not matter, there is something overloading the system. The back-up lights are also still the original standard system in back only the switch is new.

I can have the back-up lights on by themselves and there is no problem. I can have the signal lights on by themselves and there is no problem. I can have the hide-away-headlights on by themselves and there is no problem.

Again thanks for your help!!!
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old May 13th, 10, 11:32 PM
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

FYI, it appears that the power for the back up lights and turn signals come from the same wire/circuit inside the car... I really wish I had the pin out or internal diagram for the fuse block(s)! When I take mine appart, I'm going to make one!!!

Where does the fan relay get it's power? I assume you relocated your front turn signals. Do they have a good ground? Did you have to make extensions to power them? Where does your fuel pump get power? Do you use a relay for it? The back up switch is new. Did you have one in before that worked?

Man, I both love and hate electrical problems... ;-) I've learned to only try to replace one thing at a time, electrical or not... :-P


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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old May 14th, 10, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

FYI, it appears that the power for the back up lights and turn signals come from the same wire/circuit inside the car... I really wish I had the pin out or internal diagram for the fuse block(s)! When I take mine apart, I'm going to make one!!!
LOL, So do I

Where does the fan relay get it's power?
It gets it power from a separate regulator fed directly off the battery, I then have a single line feeding to the ignition. I have identified earlier as to why I believe this is not a problem. However, if I am wrong about my earlier assessments please let me know.

I assume you relocated your front turn signals.
Yes the ones in front were re-located
Do they have a good ground?
I have only assumed that they have a good ground. I had someone else install them.
Did you have to make extensions to power them?
Not that I am aware of.
Where does your fuel pump get power?
The fuel pump
was installed when I purchased the car and when it had a standard headlight kit, this was never a problem. The engine blew-up and so I bought a new engine and installed this headlight kit before I even had the engine. The kit was purchased before the engine blew up. Now I believe the fuel pump is wired directly to the battery.

Do you use a relay for it?
No, I have a separate regulator for it.
The back up switch is new. Did you have one in before that worked?
No this particular set-up is entirely new and was installed as a necessity for the Cheetah shifter does not allow for placement of both a lock-out and reverse light sensors. I went with the lock-out and had this switch set-up fabricated by the same people who installed the hide-away headlight kit.

Man, I both love and hate electrical problems... ;-) I've learned to only try to replace one thing at a time, electrical or not... :-P
LOL, hence why I had paid someone to do this!!! Beginning to regret that decision!!!

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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old May 15th, 10, 12:16 AM
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Re: Possible ground or other RS Headlights

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOornotdo View Post
FYI, it appears that the power for the back up lights and turn signals come from the same wire/circuit inside the car... I really wish I had the pin out or internal diagram for the fuse block(s)! When I take mine apart, I'm going to make one!!!
LOL, So do I

Where does the fan relay get it's power?
It gets it power from a separate regulator fed directly off the battery, I then have a single line feeding to the ignition. I have identified earlier as to why I believe this is not a problem. However, if I am wrong about my earlier assessments please let me know.

I assume you relocated your front turn signals.
Yes the ones in front were re-located
Do they have a good ground?
I have only assumed that they have a good ground. I had someone else install them.
Did you have to make extensions to power them?
Not that I am aware of.
Where does your fuel pump get power?
The fuel pump was installed when I purchased the car and when it had a standard headlight kit, this was never a problem. The engine blew-up and so I bought a new engine and installed this headlight kit before I even had the engine. The kit was purchased before the engine blew up. Now I believe the fuel pump is wired directly to the battery.

Do you use a relay for it?
No, I have a separate regulator for it.
The back up switch is new. Did you have one in before that worked?
No this particular set-up is entirely new and was installed as a necessity for the Cheetah shifter does not allow for placement of both a lock-out and reverse light sensors. I went with the lock-out and had this switch set-up fabricated by the same people who installed the hide-away headlight kit.

Man, I both love and hate electrical problems... ;-) I've learned to only try to replace one thing at a time, electrical or not... :-P
LOL, hence why I had paid someone to do this!!! Beginning to regret that decision!!!

OK... You probably won't like this, but why not just take the car back to the person who did the work and make them fix it? They should stand by their work!

Anywho, I was asking about all those connections (fan, pump, etc.) to see if the circuits may have been using the same source and overloading the circuit. I mean, you do say the whole car dies! I don't know of any circuit breakers in the system (other than one added for hidden lights). There may be one. I don't see it in the schematics. Maybe there's one in the updated alternator? I only really know of fusable links. And those don't come back to life...

As far as the fuel pump, some people like to use a relay for it. It just keeps the "high" amp stuff out from under your dash...

Hmmm, the back up switch... For '68, it's on the same circuit (from factory) as the turn signals. Now that I check a '67 diagram, the power seems separate!

My guess is something in the new back up circuit. But that wouldn't explain the circuit breaker in your headlight system tripping unless there was a common circuit there, as well... Plus, the signals trip it, too. Wonder how they power the back up circuit if not using original wiring (light green and pink wires under the dash for '67?).

Which brings up another guess. I wonder if the stop/limit switches on the headlight covers are set correctly? MAYBE if the motors are running w/o being kicked off, that current draw plus one additional thing is enough to trip the circuit breaker???

THEN, there are grounds!!!

Meh... Honestly, I would talk to the installers. They need to fix it for you. You can just show them repeatedly the failure mode. So, they can't deny it...

Tough one!!!


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