Checking the ground from battery to engine - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 20th, 12, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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bigsteve
 
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Checking the ground from battery to engine

I am having a hot/warm hardstarting condition after 5 10 minuets. Initial and shut off and start up are fine. Now I want to check the neg cable connection. The cables are new 4 gauge cables. I check the ground from battery to engine and it connects to the stud on the water neck on the intake manifold. I would like to know if I should remove this stud and wirewheel it to make sure it a good ground for the neg battery cable or can I do this with a tester? Also would like to know if there is something I can put on the threads to keep it from corroding but not cause it to make a bad ground. I was told these studs were not a good ground from an old time mechanic because of corrosion and wanted to know what you all thing.

Last edited by bigsteve; Feb 20th, 12 at 04:23 PM.
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 20th, 12, 01:20 PM
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

You should try installing ground in front of engine near oil pan and make sure you have grounding straps to valve covers and there is one for body to frame by lower body mount on passenger side.

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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 20th, 12, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

I have the grounding straps to valve covers and there is one for body to frame by lower body mount on passenger side.

Can I use Anti Seize or silicone grease on the stud bolt without causing a problem with grounding?

Should the one to the valve covers go between the bolt and heavy spacer or does it not matter?

Last edited by bigsteve; Feb 20th, 12 at 03:30 PM.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 20th, 12, 06:09 PM
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Jim
 
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

You could try this to see if you have a problem with your connection point or a problem with the starter. Even new cables could give you a problem as some have molded on ends and inside the wires corrode causing problems but on the outside look perfectly good.

Take a jumper cable, or double them up and connect from the battery negative terminal to a clean bare spot on the engine or to the starter bolts and with the other original cable still connected see how it cranks over. If it cranks over better then there is a ground problem. If it still cranks over slow then I would think that you have a starter problem.

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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 20th, 12, 06:41 PM
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

I have the battery ground cable going to the bottom alternator mounting bolt.
Bad connections result in nothing or just a click click hot cold warm what ever
It seems u have cleaned all these up..nps.

Quote:
I am having a hot/warm hardstarting condition after 5 10 minuets
What u have here sounds more like the heat sink from headers faclicy symptom....which is not heat from the headers
It is one of the following
1/ The solenold contact copper washer inside the starter solenoid is worn out...generally simply turning over fixes for the rest of thwe life of the starter.
2/The armiture in the starter has dry joints..this is usually the result of the intial timing setting being to far advanced (over 12 degs max) this loads up the starter , espec the intial current draw getting way over 900 amps...over time partly melts the armiture soldered joints so when it gets warm (not hot) the dry joints offer to high a resistance and the starter doesnt do anything.
3/ The battery has sucked a kumura, and/or u have a crook alternater.
Do a load check on the battery...
Battery is fully charged,...check it voltage..... turn on lights fans windscreen wipers, indicators, no engine running , for 60 to 90 secs...then check the voltage.

I will lay my money on the armiture in the starter, or soldenoild copper contact washer.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 21st, 12, 02:07 AM
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Steve
 
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

There's also a ground on the inner fender passenger side to frame at the front of the well, but I doubt that missing is going to cause a starting issue. Heat soak as was mentioned sounds like your problem, not grounding or it wouldn't happen only when hot. I would wire wheel the stud on the thermostat housing and reinstalling it there unless originality doesn't matter to you, then replace the starter / solenoid if it doesn't help it. You can buy a heat shield for the starter too.

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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 21st, 12, 08:47 AM
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

You may want to look at this as it is great kit and resolves many starter issues! Simple and easy install! There alternator kit upgrade is worth it too!

http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/st-1.shtml

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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 21st, 12, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

But why is it that when the car is started fine and run up to operating temperture and shut down/restarted right away that it starts with no problem? Is that where the soak in heat soak comes in?
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 21st, 12, 11:16 AM
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Al
 
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsteve View Post
But why is it that when the car is started fine and run up to operating temperture and shut down/restarted right away that it starts with no problem? Is that where the soak in heat soak comes in?

Yes. As it sits, there is no air moving to cool things down. The solenoid windings heat up via heat from the engine which increases resistance (normal) and it takes more current to operate it.

An easy test is to get it hot to the point where it won't start. Connect a remote starter button across the "S" terminal and the positive cable at the solenoid. If it cranks normally then the problem is somewhere in the car's wiring - crappy connections, worn ign switch, neutral safety switch, etc.

If it doesn't crank normally then the problem is likely in the starter or the solenoid, or a battery that won't hold a charge.


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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 21st, 12, 12:02 PM
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

Quote:
But why is it that when the car is started fine and run up to operating temperture and shut down/restarted right away that it starts with no problem? Is that where the soak in heat soak comes in?
Heat soak is a myth....
The issue is to advanced timing in the dizzy, loading huge amps into the starter , overheating the solder joints, and when the starter gets WARM NOT hot, the joints open and the current doesnt run thru the armiture and then start doesnt work...
Think about it, even drop a starter when so called heat sink issues have happened....
There is a air gap between headers and starter body....yes that part patch of the body gets hot...then that heat has to transfer to the windings...those solder joints are not affected, and those windings also not effected....Then the heat has to get thru the bearings.bushes and air gap to get to the armiture....the armiture is warm, thats it, still in the working temp...
BUT as I said before the core issue is intial dizzy timing, engine load...
Why the hang do carn manufactures have intial timings between TDC and max 12 degs?...and hi compression engines around 6 to 8?
The 302 intial timing was 8 degs.

So IF it is heat sink, u can replace the armitur (or starter) sort your timing....FIX
or get an ugly heat sheld, and PATCH, not fix, the problem.

Keep in mind it may just be the copper washer contact in the soldenold that needs turning over.....common to the life of most starters.

If u want to check the armiture, take it out , put it in a oven and heat till hot tothe hand, then check continuity with the multi meter.....or take it to an old school Auto sparkie that still has a groweler machine and test it.

Edit, and check the bearings, brushes and bushes...all of these with do these symtoms....and contained in a rebuild kits, real cheap......if dont have a lathe, to re finish the armiture communtaor, a bit of fine emery, with a leather boot lace rapped around , pulling the ends spins the emery paper.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 21st, 12, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

So setting my timing @ 2 deg BTDC like the book tells me is incorrect for my car?
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 21st, 12, 04:15 PM
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

Quote:
So setting my timing @ 2 deg BTDC like the book tells me is incorrect for my car?
No...
Quote:
Why the hang do carn manufactures have intial timings between TDC and max 12 degs?...
If u READ the post you would understand the issue is beyond the 12 deg intial...NOT below...2 deg BTDC is below right?, it doesnt load the starter right?....
THAT IS the issue right?
u are missing the piont.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 21st, 12, 06:54 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

Now I do
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 21st, 12, 08:54 PM
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Al
 
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

What do you get when it's hot and it has been sitting - slow cranking or nothing at all? There's a big difference.

If you get nothing (or perhaps just a click) but it cranks normally with a remote starter button, then the starter and solenoid are fine.

I'm gonna make a guess - you still have the 40+ year old front light and engine wiring harnesses and possibly ignition switch and neutral safety switch. Have you cleaned the contacts at the horn relay bus? At the junction ahead of the battery? Dirty/old contacts have increased resistance. Add to that the naturally increased resistance in a hot solenoid, and pretty soon you have less than the current/voltage required to activate the solenoid. All the "S" terminal on the sol needs is low resistance batt voltage. That's why the ford solenoid works - it bypasses all of the cruddy old factory wiring and delivers what the "s" terminal needs. It takes very little current to activate the Fordnoid. You can accomplish the same thing with a Bosch type relay w/o all of the ugly wiring.


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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 22nd, 12, 09:26 AM
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Re: Checking the ground from battery to engine

Unless the solenoid disk is burned as mentioned above, its not the problem.

An understanding of what's going on may help to understand the different small systems involved.

The ignition switch operates the solenoid, which has two functions. One, to operate the Bendix which throws the the starter gear out to engage the flywheel. Two, to switch on the starter.

The starter itself runs off the big wires coming from the battery and draws hundreds of Amps.

Since the starter is turning the engine, both functions of the solenoid are working. The problem has to lie in the starter circuit, which is the battery, starter, the two big battery cables, and any bolts, connectors, etc. involved in attaching all this stuff together.

I'd move the ground to one of the bolt holes at the front of the block below the water pump. No sense bolting the ground cable to the thermostat housing which bolts to the intake, which bolts to the heads, which (finally) bolt to the block.

You might unbolt the starter and clean the bolts. They are part of the circuit.
Clean the battery terminals.
If the car isn't driven daily, slow charge the battery for 48 hours.
You can measure the voltage between the ends of the big battery cables while the starter is spinning the engine. This should be quite low. If its over about a Volt, the cable, connection, and/or the connector are bad.
Check for hot connectors that indicate resistance where it doesn't belong.
Check timing as suggested.

I'll bet the above fixes things.
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