Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 08:38 AM Thread Starter
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Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

I PM'd John (Vintage 68) a couple of questions regarding wiring my new 140 amp 12SI 3 wire alternator, battery relocation to trunk, and stereo amps, and he suggested keeping it public to share knowledge, which I'm happy to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 67Rally
Hey John, I appreciate the info you gave in my 1 wire alternator thread. I just wanted to pick your brain quickly on my battery relocation. I ended up ordering a 140amp 3 wire alternator as well as some 1/0 welding cable and #2 welding cable.

I spent about an hour on the phone with Mark from MAD and ended up ordering a bunch of stuff from him (insulated terminal blocks, remote solenoid, alternator wiring kit, etc). But one thing he said was to run a #8 from the alt to the terminal block and another #8 from the terminal block to the battery to slow the battery charging rate.

Your post recommended a #4 or #2 to the battery from the terminal block. I tend to take the "bigger is better" kind of approach and would hate to waste the #2 I ordered. Should I go ahead and run #2 in place of the #8 he recommended, or should I be worried about the battery charging rate.

FWIW I will be running a pretty demanding stereo setup with 3 amps pushing around 1500 watts RMS, so I'm leaning towards the #2.

Thanks.

-Brent
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage 68
Mark is correct to want to limit the battery feed if there is a chance of 'over-charging' the battery system.
With older automotive batteries they would get hot enough to expand the case and even leak and/or boil electrolyte out of them and cause a large mess until the failed, way before their time ...
Newer batteries (in automotive use anyway - the same does not hold true for marine/truck systems) are much more stable and it is very rare for a system to be able to produce enough current to damage them - but that is what he is hinting at, it 'could' happen.
It is another reason an Alt. with "remote" sensing capacity is needed. These units have a remote feed from the battery - or other nearby load point - to allow the alt. to 'know' what's happening at that point farther away from the unit - so they don't over-charge the system.
They will boost voltage as needed but limit current - as a function of the internals as well as the way a system is wired - but tend to reserve amperage levels in a safe range.

We are really talking two different thingys here - wiring from the alt to the bat - and wiring from the bat to the amp(s)
I would be fine with a smaller wiring size from the alt/terminal to the bat. depending upon duty cycle of the amps - you aren't really going to operate an amp system anywhere near full draw (or output) for any great length of time ... are you ???
You will be charging the battery at a slower rate over a given period of time and then discharging it to the amps at a higher rate for a relatively shorter period of time.
Think of it as filling a toilet bowl with the smaller feed from the wall and then 'flushing' with the little chrome handle kinda thing ...
So a #4 would allow a 35A continuous charge rate with no issues, a #2 would allow a 50A+ charge rate and his recommended #8 would lower those to the 12~14A range, continuous - this is from the Alt. to the Bat. exclusively.

If you remember what I said in the thread - 'it will depend on your amps needs' ...
I would calculate your actual load needs of the amp. system you are planning and size the amp feed wiring (from the bat. to the amp) in accordance with that.
If the per amp needs are a total of @500~1000RMS-WA then a #4 would be plenty of continuous load capacity (wiring line capacity of @35A-12VDC)
If your amps need a total closer to @1500RMS-WA then you'll need a #2 to fully drive the system (line capacity of @55A-12VDC) ...
Anything over 1500RMS-WA will need to be sized onto the 'O'~'OO' range per amp - those are the "huge" amps ...
That's the reason you see multiple batteries or external power supply systems hooked to cars at shows driving big amp/speaker systems - one battery can't handle that sort of load for very long

Be sure to design a good - and short - ground path for the amps! I don't know how many set-ups I've seen over the years with good wiring feeds and then really poor 'grounding' circuits ...
If you need to run a dedicated ground wire to a terminal close to the amp installation then do it and wire the amps grounds to that.

Hope this helps.
btw - while I don't mind answering questions via PM at all (do it all the time) - 'we' learn more in the open forums. And ... if I screw up - which happens alot - someone is quick to jump-in and offer the correction or an alternate idea to help out
I just want you to get good accurate info and not make a mistake due to something I missed ...

John


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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

I do tend to play my music loud from time to time...The amps are slightly older, but pretty solid. Here's the amps/speaker setup:

Alpine MRD-1005 Mono subwoofer amp (700w RMSx1 or 1000w RMS into 2 ohm)
2 - Alpine MRV-T420 two channel amps (110w RMS x2)

2 - Infinity Kappa Perfect 12.1 subs
Alpine SPR-60C 6.5" component speakers (110w RMS) for the front
Alpine SPR-69 6x9 coaxial speakers (100w RMS) for the rear

I'll be running the 12" subs in parallel to show the MRD-1005 a 2 ohm load, and will simply run one MRV-T420 to the fronts and one to the rears, so the system will be right around 1450w RMS.

My plan was to run a #4 from the battery to a 150amp fuse, then to a distribution block and then a #4 to the MRD-1005 and two #8's to the MRV-T420's. I was going to run another distribution block for the grounds with the same size wiring. Should this be #2 for the battery and gound wire instead of #4? And should I ground directly to the battery or a bumper bolt (or something similar)

I have a Yellow Top Optima that I am relocating to the trunk and will run 1/0 welding cable to a remote MAD solenoid, and continue the 1/0 to the starter. I will run a #2 to the MAD terminal block, and #8 to the alternator.

Let's stop there and see what I'm missing, or if anyone has any comments.


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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 11:09 AM
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

You size the alternator to battery cable based on maximum alternator output. Period. Doing otherwise is assuming that the battery will never require full charge output. A Yellow Top will draw 100A if it deep cycles to minimum voltage if your alternator can put it out. If the cable isn't large enough for efficient transfer of the power demand of the system, the alternator eventually will overheat and burn out. When the car is running, all of the car's electrical load is supplied by the alternator, the battery stores energy. It supplies it when the system demand is higher than the alternator can put out.

Using wire size to dictate how much charge the battery gets..... I've never heard of such. A good alternator has a good voltage regulator that maintains proper voltage at all times. That is what dictates the battery's state of charge. It's wire, not a valve, unless you use too small of one and then it's a blown out valve.

I'm not clear on your use of the terminal block. You'd want to run the alternator output to it, then run your power cables from it to each load with appropriately sized cables for their maximum draw. That would be minimum #2 for a 140A alternator and a terminal block close to the alternator. Then you would need at a minimum #2 to the rear of the car if you're going to supply the battery and amps from there. #2 is good for 100A at 20 feet.

Mad Electrical has some good information but here's my problem with them....
They state that they don't sell alternators so they don't have a dog in the fight for one wire versus three wire. BUT, they sure sell three wire kits. Also they use conflicting arguments. On one page, they say system voltage should be kept at 14.2 volts to prevent overcharging the battery. Then on their three wire sales page they reference old car wiring having as much as a 2 volt drop so to use their remote sense to get the voltage up where you need it. NO. Fix your wiring. If you have a battery connected directly to the alternator, and one of these "old cars" that needs two more volts output from the alternator to "see" 14.2 volts at the remote sense location, isn't your battery seeing 16.2V which is pretty dang dangerous?

Sorry man, I realize this can be confusing. Bottom line, the main power junction and battery cables should be sized for maximum alternator output. Device/load/accessory cables should be sized for slightly above maximum draw and fused according to cable capacity with fuse installed closest to power supply point. It's also not a bad idea with rear mount battery to install a large fuse or something like a Phoenix Gold circuit breaker between the alternator and rear of the car if you're going to have your main power junction back there.

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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 11:49 AM
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steiner View Post
If you have a battery connected directly to the alternator, and one of these "old cars" that needs two more volts output from the alternator to "see" 14.2 volts at the remote sense location, isn't your battery seeing 16.2V which is pretty dang dangerous?
Steiner - I can attest to that - my car was involved in a minor collision, and the body shop mounted the new external voltage reg in rubber well nuts but left off the ground strap. Kablooey went the batt - blew the top right off of it.

I think the MAD guy is talking about a factory harness layout, in which the sense wire, the alt output wire and the charge wire are all connected at the main splice. The alt supplies 14.2 (or whatever the set point is) to the splice, and everything downstream from that including the batt will see slightly less.

Also to the OP -

Many don't realize (OK, at least I didn't) that GM included a fusible link in the charge wire. It was originally the pigtail that came off of the pos batt cable to the core support junction. Parts house generic replacement battery cables in my experience generally use standard copper there, so that part of circuit protection is lost. My advice - regardless of wire size you choose for your charge wire - add a 6" length of fusible link in it that is 4 AWG sizes smaller. I didn't notice any mention of it above and apologize if I missed it.


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Last edited by BPOS; Mar 1st, 12 at 12:16 PM.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steiner View Post
I'm not clear on your use of the terminal block. You'd want to run the alternator output to it, then run your power cables from it to each load with appropriately sized cables for their maximum draw. That would be minimum #2 for a 140A alternator and a terminal block close to the alternator. Then you would need at a minimum #2 to the rear of the car if you're going to supply the battery and amps from there. #2 is good for 100A at 20 feet.
My plan is to use the the terminal block on the drivers side firewall to act as my main distribution point rather than using my horn relay for a distribution block. I will run the #2 from the battery to the terminal block, and then a #8 to the alt. This is also where I'll be running the remote sensing wire from. Then it's a very short run to the fuse panel from the block with #12 rather than from all the way up front.

And yes, this is pretty confusing, at least for someone without an electrical background. I have done a lot of reading, but there seem to be many conflicting views on the wiring. I appreciate all the help.


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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPOS View Post
Also to the OP -

Many don't realize (OK, at least I didn't) that GM included a fusible link in the charge wire. It was originally the pigtail that came off of the pos batt cable to the core support junction. Parts house generic replacement battery cables in my experience generally use standard copper there, so that part of circuit protection is lost. My advice - regardless of wire size you choose for your charge wire - add a 6" length of fusible link in it that is 4 AWG sizes smaller. I didn't notice any mention of it above and apologize if I missed it.
Thanks, I didn't list the fusible link, but am planning on running one on the charging wire at the remote starter solenoid end, and another between the terminal block and the main fuse panel. If I use a #2 wire to charge the battery, then I need a #6 fusible link?

My plan is to run the setup from MAD, but use the #2 in place of the #10 in the diagram below, and move the battery and remote starter solenoid to the trunk. The wire from the battery to the solenoid will be 1/0 as well as from the solenoid to the starter:



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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 01:50 PM
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67Rally View Post
If I use a #2 wire to charge the battery, then I need a #6 fusible link?

That seems to be the rule of thumb - a 6" length 4 sizes smaller than the wire it is protecting. NAPA sells FL wire in 10' rolls for under $10, although I've never looked for 6ga. You might check if there's a NAPA close by.


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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

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Originally Posted by BPOS View Post
That seems to be the rule of thumb - a 6" length 4 sizes smaller than the wire it is protecting. NAPA sells FL wire in 10' rolls for under $10, although I've never looked for 6ga. You might check if there's a NAPA close by.
I can't seem to find any #6 fusible link anywhere on the internet. I called NAPA and the guy said he only had #12-16 FL.

Anyone that has a link to this stuff would be appreciated. Someone must be using a fusible link on their #2 power wire right?


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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 04:57 PM
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

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Originally Posted by 67Rally View Post
My plan is to use the the terminal block on the drivers side firewall to act as my main distribution point rather than using my horn relay for a distribution block. I will run the #2 from the battery to the terminal block, and then a #8 to the alt. This is also where I'll be running the remote sensing wire from. Then it's a very short run to the fuse panel from the block with #12 rather than from all the way up front.

And yes, this is pretty confusing, at least for someone without an electrical background. I have done a lot of reading, but there seem to be many conflicting views on the wiring. I appreciate all the help.

Again, your alternator provides all the power to the system when the car is running. The alternator output/charge cable must be sized to handle the full rated alternator output.

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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 05:29 PM
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

So are you suggesting that both the 8ga to the junction block from the alternator and 10 ga block to the remote solenoid should be changed out to 2ga in this scenario? Based on a 1000 w rms system and 100amp alternator. (Using the mad schematic )

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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

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Originally Posted by 67RSSS View Post
So are you suggesting that both the 8ga to the junction block from the alternator and 10 ga block to the remote solenoid should be changed out to 2ga in this scenario? Based on a 1000 w rms system and 100amp alternator. (Using the mad schematic )
x2?


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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 1st, 12, 05:50 PM
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

I recently moved my batt to the trunk, but w/o the remote solenoid to avoid some of your dilemmas. My pos batt cable is routed through the interior to a bulkhead connector under the heater box and my charge wire attaches there, so most of my charge wire is 1/0 welding cable. From the BH connector to the junction block is 8ga with a 12 ga fusible link.

I understand the remote sol thing and the reasons for it, and don't mean to start an argument, but am saying if the wire is routed and secured carefully it's no more dangerous than an under-the-hood always hot pos. NHRA sees things differently, BTW!

I'm running nowhere near the high draw accessories you are. I made the giant leap from a 63a 10DN to a 63a 10SI, and the harness is otherwise unaltered save for jumpers at the old VR plug.

Just throwin' that out there.


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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 2nd, 12, 03:50 AM
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67RSSS View Post
So are you suggesting that both the 8ga to the junction block from the alternator and 10 ga block to the remote solenoid should be changed out to 2ga in this scenario? Based on a 1000 w rms system and 100amp alternator. (Using the mad schematic )


Thinks about it for a minute while looking at that diagram. 140A capacity sitting right there at the alternator. Why would you put a cable rated for 50A going from it to the junction block and a cable rated for 30A supplying the rear of the car where you've got 100A worth of amplifiers and the possibility of a 100A draw from the battery if it were to deep cycle?

The battery's job is mainly to start the car, help cushion and stabilize the electrical system, and supply momentary current only when the alternator is overloaded. The rest of the time when the car is running it is just another load for the alternator to supply. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it seems like some are looking at the battery as the main system supply, not the alternator.

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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 2nd, 12, 05:12 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steiner View Post
Thinks about it for a minute while looking at that diagram. 140A capacity sitting right there at the alternator. Why would you put a cable rated for 50A going from it to the junction block and a cable rated for 30A supplying the rear of the car where you've got 100A worth of amplifiers and the possibility of a 100A draw from the battery if it were to deep cycle?

The battery's job is mainly to start the car, help cushion and stabilize the electrical system, and supply momentary current only when the alternator is overloaded. The rest of the time when the car is running it is just another load for the alternator to supply. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it seems like some are looking at the battery as the main system supply, not the alternator.
So you would run a #2 from the alt to the junction block and then continue the #2 back to the battery, correct?

Is there a simple chart that shows the appropriate wire gauge for given amp draws and lengths of wire? I read somewhere that #8 wire could supply 150A for short runs. What is classified as a short run? Thanks.


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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 2nd, 12, 07:18 AM
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Re: Alternator/remote battery/amp wiring

Some answers here:
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

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