Help with Amp - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Jun 23rd, 12, 04:34 AM Thread Starter
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Eric
 
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Help with Amp

I've been thinking about adding an amp to my '69 coupe.
Here's what I have currently. 1990 or so Alpine 7256 head unit,bought new,really like and want to keep(I know cassettes are old history) but it sounds good and fits my dash good w/ no butchering. 1995 Alpine 3 way 6x9's rated at 35watts rms.
Just looking for some more power without getting all crazy,but definitely want a high quality unit,not sure if I want to do a sub or not. Might have to do speaker upgrade also? Would like to go at least 60 to 100 watts per channel. Not looking to be the loudest guy around,just some extra punch if I want it.
Also have question on hook up, when using the RCA connections to the amp,what do you do with the speaker leads that come from the head unit's pig tail? cap them off? or what? I haven't worked with this kind of stuff for many years. Suggestions/advice please.

'69 Camaro, w/'67 L30 327 .030, L79 cam, 700DP, M20, 3.73 12 Bolt

Last edited by L30 327; Jun 23rd, 12 at 04:55 AM.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Jun 23rd, 12, 04:50 AM
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Re: Help with Amp

There are plenty of used alpine 4 ch amps on ebay, that is what I bought Infinty Kappas are my chioce for speakers.

Kevin


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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Jun 23rd, 12, 04:57 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Help with Amp

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
There are plenty of used alpine 4 ch amps on ebay, that is what I bought Infinty Kappas are my chioce for speakers.
Did it ramp up your sound pretty good? are you happy with it? How many watts would you suggest?

'69 Camaro, w/'67 L30 327 .030, L79 cam, 700DP, M20, 3.73 12 Bolt
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Jun 23rd, 12, 12:11 PM
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Re: Help with Amp

I have not gotten them in yet (long project!), but when I mocked them it it sounded great. I have a vert and it is very hard to hide things. I have a kenwood powered sub to go in behind the spare and a 75w 4 ch Alpine that fits behind the dash with 6x9 2 way and 4x6 2 way plate speakers (kick panels) Kappas. Right now the 4x6 plates are hooked up to the radio (with ipod) and just those sound pretty good. Hopefully I can get the rest installed this season, but everything takes custom mounts and I have been putting them on the back burner while I enjoy cruising.

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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Jun 25th, 12, 11:14 AM
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Re: Help with Amp

Just a few things to consider and ask yourself before you start dropping $$ into your system!
How many sets of RCA pre outs are on the back of your Alpine Head unit that you have?
How many speakers do you plan to run with the importance being the size of the front speakers you can fit? If you are fortunate to have 6.5 holes cut up front or in the doors you are ahead of the game in the sound quality that you can produce! If not you need to decide if you are willing to cut holes in your kick panels or doors to accommodate this size of speaker?
If not you are than limiting yourself to 4 in coaxial or 4x6 speakers up front which will be your limiting factor in sound quality! So buying a big 4 channel amp would not be in your interest to power the 4 inch speakers as they are severely limited on RMS power and sound reproduction. Just something one must take into consideration on their build.
If plans are to add a sub or set of subs than in most cases you are better off looking at a separate amp for these unless you go for a 5 channel amp? Again take into consideration the RMS power rating on the amp and matching it to the speaker RMS. I would recommend a sub with at least 300w of RMS and amp that matches this output as starter.
Having said this you must be aware that your ‘alternator” that you have is capable of supplying the necessary charge to run your system in addition to the accessories you have installed presently. It may run things presently, A/C electric fans, lights, etc but may not be capable of handling the extra amps from your new amps. You than have the added expense of purchasing a new alternator to keep up which many overlook! The upgrade is going to suck another 35 amps – 60 amps so if you have a 60 amp alternator it will not cut it. It is best to go to a CS 140 amp alternator and forget about the 100 amp alternator.
In doing this you will need to run 4 gauge wire minimum from alternator to battery to handle the extra charging. 1 gauge from battery to starter and 1 gauge from negative to engine block is a good idea. Add minimum 4 gauge from negative battery to radiator ground. Get good quality wire not aluminum clad wiring that is being sold by all the brand name suppliers because of cost.
These folks have the best quality Power, speaker and RCA cables and will take all the guess work out of one’s install. http://www.knukonceptz.com/index.cfm They offer complete install kits also.
How much power? 80-100w RMS out of an amp is a good place to be. 270-300w for a single 10 inch sub is also good. Just be aware on mating the sub impedance with the amps (2 or 4 ohm).
Jl audio makes a great 5 channel amp that is small Powerful and will fit under the front seat, although I would prefer to mount amp in trunk as there is more air flow. Alpine has some good amplifiers PDX series but are a class D which are better suited for subs. They also have a small foot print.
Kicker amps work very well also although larger and take up space.

Speakers: These you really need to hear for yourself! The POLK DB series are a great starting point from the sound quality and price. If you can find a set of their MOMO 6x9 they are great! Just these in the back package tray alone Sound impressive with 80-100w rms running to them. These were their high end speakers worth every penny. 100.00-125.00 and can handle 125w rms each. They need a minimum of 60w to sound decent. The same can be said for their 6.5 components Momos if you can scoop them on eBay. 150.00. 175.00 new 6500 series.

There DB series is a step down but there new MM line replaces the MOMOS but is not quite as good as there older MOMO lines that can still be found on eBay.
Audison makes a good speaker. Their hertz high energy line sound very good.
Key is to take the time required to match your components properly and be realistic with your expectations and your sound system will meet them. Take your time in planning and installing to save costly mistakes!

67 RSSS Van Nuys, 4th week Sept,1966
ps,tilt,headrest,spd warn,pw,am/fm,delux int,
remote mirror,rear defrost,tint glass.etc...
TKO 600 Extreme,12bolt 3:73 gears.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Jun 25th, 12, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Help with Amp

Thanks for the reply Chris,lots of good info there. I think I'm probably going to just try throwing about 60-75 watts at my rear 6x9s for now and see how I like that. I currently have the small 4" dual Kenwood set-up in the factory radio speaker spot and I'm running that at about 30 percent power with the fader. I think I'll leave that the way that it is and get a 2 channel amp for the rear 6x9s. What about a pair of tweeters in the factory radio speaker spot, or would that be not good? I'm kind of trying to go for the same type of sound that the newer factory stereos have.( I have a new 2012 Cruze and I really like the way the stereo sounds in that.) I 'm running a 87 amp 12 si alternator. Do you think that will power a 60 -75 watt 2 channel amp ok? Thanks for the input.

'69 Camaro, w/'67 L30 327 .030, L79 cam, 700DP, M20, 3.73 12 Bolt
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Jun 25th, 12, 08:24 PM
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Re: Help with Amp

No tweeters! Unless you are prpared to put a component set of 6.5 in the front. Component set for the rear is not as good as a good set of 6x9 from my experience. Presently fighting with the sound in mine.

The components in the rear need to be moved to the front but until i can arrange them without cutting pannels they will remain were they are. The 4 inch Fosgates dual coaxials in the dash are insufficient for balancing the sound. They supply all the highs that one needs but that is about it.

More mid base is needed in the front that one can only get from a 6.5 speaker. I have them turned off and am just running the Hertz components and 10 inch sub which sounds good but still needs front fill.

67 RSSS Van Nuys, 4th week Sept,1966
ps,tilt,headrest,spd warn,pw,am/fm,delux int,
remote mirror,rear defrost,tint glass.etc...
TKO 600 Extreme,12bolt 3:73 gears.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 12, 08:27 AM Thread Starter
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Eric
 
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Re: Help with Amp

ok, I have an update to this thread. It turns out that my Alpine head unit does not have RCA outputs,ARRRRGH. So I ordered a new Alpine CD with USB and AUX ports on the front. It looks like I'm going to have to cut my dash,not that big of a deal because previous owner already hacked at it a bit. I really like using the flash drive in the stereo thing.
Anyway I got a Cerwin Vega 250x2, 2 channel amp and a pair of Infinity Kappa 2 way 6x9s. All I can say is wow. Sound is nice and powerful!! I'm using my MP3 straight to the RCA's on the amp for now,because the high speaker output connection from my old head unit to the amp sounded like crap. I can't wait til my new head unit comes,then I'll be back to all 4 speakers and everything will work like it should.

'69 Camaro, w/'67 L30 327 .030, L79 cam, 700DP, M20, 3.73 12 Bolt
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 2nd, 12, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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Eric
 
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Re: Help with Amp

Update to thread. I returned new Alpine h/u because it was the entry level model and had insufficient tone controls,imo. Got a somewhat loaded Sony h/u with lots of features including a 7 band eq. Love it. My friends are all amazed at the clear,loud,brutal sound that I have from the Cerwin Vega amp and the Kappa's out of the rear.
Here's the problem, I have the Custom Autosound dual voice coil front speaker in the center dash area running off of the h/u only for front channels. I have used Custom Autosound in the past and was less than impressed and this time it's the same result. The front sound just ain't gonna cut it for me. Is there any other way to get more front sound without cutting kicks or door pannels? Any ideas and or input would be welcomed,thanks.

'69 Camaro, w/'67 L30 327 .030, L79 cam, 700DP, M20, 3.73 12 Bolt
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 2nd, 12, 07:18 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Help with Amp

Yeah, that CA dash speaker is weak. I've got a couple of 3" speakers that I'm going to mount to a board and then use the bracket off the CA speaker (or the old bracket) to mount it. Have had them for like six months and just never got around to it.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 3rd, 12, 10:36 AM
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Re: Help with Amp

Unfortunatley not! We are limited by the size of the speaker that will fit up front in the dash. I have powered mine with an external Quart amp and yes its louder but the sound is unbalanced to the rest of the system.

The 3- 4 inch is just incapable of reproducing the sound we are after. This is further complicated when you have your rear speakers powered by the external amp and again if you run a subwoofer. It is a constant fight that we cannot win with 3-4 inch speakers up front.

Matching ones components and power is key to round out the systems sound quality. you cannot expect to get the results you are after with a 3-4 inch speaker, it just is not going to happen. giving the dash speakers more power is an improvement but still falls short in balancing the sound in the vehical.

One would be better off to run a good set of powered rear speakers and a sub and forget the dash speakers.You will never be satisfied with the sound quality and your efforts to tune it will always fall short. One can throw all the money they want into amps and 3-4 inch speakers but the results will be the same. Save your money and do it "right" if you want to achieve your goal.

The 6.5 in the kick panel is the way to go. As you are aware they now have the replacement kick panels that house the 6.5 speakers although they are not cheap.

Keep the originals and replace them with these and your sound quality goals will be met. Going to a 4x6 will provide the same problem issue that the 3-4 inch speakers do, so save your money and the disapointment that will follow.

The only other way is to construct your own speaker pods or build removeable boxes for the front compartment. There are ATV speaker pods available that one may find usefull in their builds. These are flush mount boxes. You could fashion brackets to these would allow one to "clip" them to the existing kick panels. Just paint them to your color choice or cover them with material. One just has to take the time to be a little creative

67 RSSS Van Nuys, 4th week Sept,1966
ps,tilt,headrest,spd warn,pw,am/fm,delux int,
remote mirror,rear defrost,tint glass.etc...
TKO 600 Extreme,12bolt 3:73 gears.

Last edited by 67RSSS; Dec 3rd, 12 at 10:17 PM.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 3rd, 12, 03:43 PM
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Re: Help with Amp

Chris, where were you 30 years ago when I was building my Alpine system???
I've two amps mounted on a board behind the rear seats. The speakers are wore out and soon to be changed. Since that install I've not used my 8 track and miss it.
OK, enough, not going to hijack. But you're right about these things being a cash sink-hole. I started out wanting a newly invented digital clock in place of my RS clock that I changed out for a volt meter. Over 1500 1980 dollars later the clock worked. (so did the stereo) And get this: the cassette direction indicator arrows are an EXACT match to '69 turn signal indicators.

One owner 69 Camaro,(yep, bought it new
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 3rd, 12, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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Eric
 
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Re: Help with Amp

The kick panels I've seen with the 6.5" speakers eliminate the lower air vents, I don't think I want to do that. I might get some repro. kicks and cut them for the 4x6 and try to stuff a pair of Infinitys down there. Or just keep rolling with weak front sound. I guess it's not that bad, the rear sound kind of bounces off the windshield and sort of makes up for it. Thanks for the replies guys.

'69 Camaro, w/'67 L30 327 .030, L79 cam, 700DP, M20, 3.73 12 Bolt
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 3rd, 12, 04:04 PM
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Re: Help with Amp

This is what I went with with my hidden audio system

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500KTP4...pine+amplifier

Plenty of power for me but im old no extra heavy power wire to run.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Jan 13th, 13, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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Eric
 
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Re: Help with Amp

Final update to my amp thread. I ditched the Custom Auto Sound front speaker thing and purchased a pair of Infinity Kappa 42.9i's and mounted them in a center dash plate. Then I added a RE Audio 160w RMS 2ch.amp under the front seat. Sonic Electronix.com had this amp at such a crazy low price that I was a little bit skeptical of it's sound quality,but it is really a great sounding amp when properly adjusted. All I can say is WOW!!! I'm sure that Chris is correct in saying the best sound would come from 6.5"s in the front. But I just could not bring myself to cut perfect original 44 year old kick or door panels. I think that I have found a really good sounding front combo. without doing any cutting. The mids and highs that come from these little 4" Infinity speakers sound amazing,blending nicely with the hard punching rears. The total RMS power of the entire system is 410 watts. And it didn't break the bank. lol.

I just wanted to say that I'm very happy with the way all of this worked out,and to thank everyone who gave me pointers along the way on how to proceed with it,especially to Chris, who really took the time to explain to me how to approach the situation, Thanks.

'69 Camaro, w/'67 L30 327 .030, L79 cam, 700DP, M20, 3.73 12 Bolt
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