Negative Battery Ground question - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 28th, 17, 05:49 AM Thread Starter
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Negative Battery Ground question

Ive been experiencing heat soak starting issues with my 69 (as detailed in another thread ) after Driving it for a long time. My negative battery cable was ground to my manifold ( Edelbrock performer RPM ) there was a fair amount of build up on the washer bolt and cable end.
Can the ground being aluminum cause resistance and if so enough can it cause enough resistance to cause the car not to start?

I just changed the ground to the engine block also cleaned up the bolt washer and cable with a wire brush, haven't had time to drive the car for a long time yet.

I do plan to back the timing off a bit and at some point get an MSD box with timing retard just curious if the ground could be the cause.
Thnx

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1987 WE4 Turbo Regal E85
2003 Sierra Stepside RCSB Belltech dropped


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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 28th, 17, 06:29 AM
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

Grounding to Al is not a problem. High tension power lines are made of Al which is very conductive. Corrosion of the connection can be a problem.

Heat soak is another issue. Try a shield for your starter, several types are available and not expensive.

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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 28th, 17, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

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Originally Posted by ctcz28 View Post
Grounding to Al is not a problem. High tension power lines are made of Al which is very conductive. Corrosion of the connection can be a problem.



Heat soak is another issue. Try a shield for your starter, several types are available and not expensive.

Thnx for the reply, I have the heat shield and have changed to a permanent magnet high torque starter so far.


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2003 Sierra Stepside RCSB Belltech dropped


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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 28th, 17, 02:28 PM
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

I looked at your build thread to see if anything might have looked out of place under the hood on the wiring but all of the pictures you have in photobucket are not visible.

Anyway, is it possible the cables you have for the starter and ground are too small as far as wire gauge ?. I know some companies sell cables and they do not call out what size gauge of wire is inside the insulation and you may have cables that have thick insulation on them leading one to believe the cables are of a particular size but in reality, the gauge is smaller than expected.

I didn't see in any of your threads but is the battery under the hood and are you using good cable terminals and not any of thse cheap 99 cent ones that clamp onto stripped wire ?.

Do you know if the battery cables are copper wire or are they copper clad aluminum ?.

If the starter is cold it might not be drawing a whole lot of current on undersized cables but then when the starter gets hotter and has to work harder the marginally sized cables which worked before now cannot keep up and you have issues.

Jim
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 28th, 17, 02:42 PM
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

What distributor are you using now ??
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 28th, 17, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

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Originally Posted by DT View Post
What distributor are you using now ??

Msd ready to run with a blaster coil


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2003 Sierra Stepside RCSB Belltech dropped


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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 28th, 17, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOA-Nova View Post
I looked at your build thread to see if anything might have looked out of place under the hood on the wiring but all of the pictures you have in photobucket are not visible.



Anyway, is it possible the cables you have for the starter and ground are too small as far as wire gauge ?. I know some companies sell cables and they do not call out what size gauge of wire is inside the insulation and you may have cables that have thick insulation on them leading one to believe the cables are of a particular size but in reality, the gauge is smaller than expected.



I didn't see in any of your threads but is the battery under the hood and are you using good cable terminals and not any of thse cheap 99 cent ones that clamp onto stripped wire ?.



Do you know if the battery cables are copper wire or are they copper clad aluminum ?.



If the starter is cold it might not be drawing a whole lot of current on undersized cables but then when the starter gets hotter and has to work harder the marginally sized cables which worked before now cannot keep up and you have issues.



Jim

Not 100% sure about wire gauge. I do plan to redo the negative battery cable, it is what you mentioned. The Positive is good
thnx for the info

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Hooker super comps
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 28th, 17, 10:21 PM
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

Hello Mike,
I was unable to find a thread describing your starter heat soak issue.
When hot and try to start....
Does your starter attempt to turn the engine over - but cranks very slowly?
Do you just hear the starter clicking, but does not turn the engine over?
Or... Nothing happens at all when you turn the ignition to start.

A couple other questions, how old is your battery?... and how many months is it rated for?
When not driving your car for a long period of time (or over the winter months - if you live in a cold climate), do you keep your battery hooked up to a trickle charger?

Definitely start with all the recommendation already provided (verify cable size and good connections first).
If your battery is questionable, I believe that most auto part stores (Advance Auto, Auto Zone, etc) will check the condition of your battery for free.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 29th, 17, 06:36 AM
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

Just a word of caution on auto parts store battery testing - not always accurate. They run some type of quickie test. If the battery is nearly dead they will pronounce it so, if marginal, maybe not. I had 2 auto parts stores declare my battery good with their quickie test, but a deep cycle test conducted by Sears that took nearly an hour to complete showed 3 bad cells and that solved my problem. So much for the quickie tests.
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 29th, 17, 06:42 AM Thread Starter
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Negative Battery Ground question

1969 camaro won't start after running , heat soak ? https://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=301553

It wasn't always but now is on the battery tender when not it use. Battery is always 100% charged. It's about 2 years old not sure if the month rating.

Car has a high torque permanent magnet starter from DB electric

One click only no cranking when it happens. Then after some time starts up nice and strong no issue. Radio lights all work fine.

Just ordered the remote solenoid kit from summit and I'll probably replace the negative cable this weekend if time allows.

Thnx for taking the time to respond.


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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 29th, 17, 01:54 PM
DT
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

Mike this may be a dumb question but I will ask anyway. Do you have the yellow wire connected still ??? That yellow wire is the resistance wire for use with original point type distributors.

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 29th, 17, 03:41 PM
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

Measure your cables. Order 00 gauge cables of the appropriate lengths.

Make sure there is no paint on the block or the starter where the starter nose bolts. Clean clean clean.

Make sure there is no paint under the neg. batt cable where you bolt it to the block.

Nothing wrong with a heat shield (piece of metal to reflect heat away from the starter. On the other hand, that heat blanket needs to go (if you haven't already ditched it). Once you park the car, that blanket can only INCREASE the temp of the starter. The starter is picking up heat from the block, and that blanket helps hold it in, not cool it off.

Good luck. Problems like this are maddening.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 29th, 17, 05:15 PM
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

If the single "click" you are describing is coming from the solenoid, a remote starter solenoid (Ford Type) should help. The remote solenoid acts as a relay to deliver a lot more amperage to your starter mounted solenoid. I had some of the same issues you are describing and added a remote solenoid and it solved my issue... just be sure to mount it away from any heat source.

If the click is coming from the starter gear engaging the flywheel (but not able to crank the engine), that means your current solenoid is probably working. I would confirm cable gauge (both + and -), secure/clean connections, and battery condition.

I always keep my battery on a maintenance charger when not in use. I cannot confirm, but I heard if you let your battery sit for a long time without any use (and no maintenance charger connected), something happens to the plates that are inside of your battery and they do not hold as much reserve power - aka cranking amps.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 29th, 17, 06:33 PM Thread Starter
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Negative Battery Ground question

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilodeaulynn View Post
Measure your cables. Order 00 gauge cables of the appropriate lengths.



Make sure there is no paint on the block or the starter where the starter nose bolts. Clean clean clean.



Make sure there is no paint under the neg. batt cable where you bolt it to the block.



Nothing wrong with a heat shield (piece of metal to reflect heat away from the starter. On the other hand, that heat blanket needs to go (if you haven't already ditched it). Once you park the car, that blanket can only INCREASE the temp of the starter. The starter is picking up heat from the block, and that blanket helps hold it in, not cool it off.



Good luck. Problems like this are maddening.

I moved the ground from the intake manifold to the front of the block ( top hole next to the fuel pump )all the paint was sanded off. The cable end washer and bolt were all cleaned with a wire brush and are spotless now. The positive cable is new and a heavier gauge the negative is in decent shape but not as thick as the positive. Hopefully this weekend I'll change out the negative cable, and take off the blanket too. Thank you for the advice.


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2003 Sierra Stepside RCSB Belltech dropped


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Last edited by ME4NSTRK69; Jun 29th, 17 at 06:52 PM.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old Jun 29th, 17, 06:33 PM
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Re: Negative Battery Ground question

True on battery testing, keeping connections clean, and heat is your worst enemy.
Instead of using a manifold bolt, use the fuel pump rod locking bolt boss, or the one below it, on the front of the block and use a serrated lock washer between the lug and block.
The less path current has to take, the better. If negative can be bolted to starter, the better.
Why have the current travel from starter chassis to block to cylinder head bolt(s) to cylinder head, and to the bolt chosen - lots of resistance

As said by others, heat is your worst enemy. Heat increases resistance, use the largest gauge cable you can purchase with the ends already crimped/molded onto the cable, a copper wire cable, and the more strands, the better.
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