ZL1 Camaro restoration site - Team Camaro Tech
Tech 2001 General Tech questions from 2001
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 1st, 02, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting site with alot or pics and documentation. Look what he had to cut off the car to replace the bad panels, wasn't left with much.......nice pics along the way

http://www.69zl1.com/

------------------
'69 SS 396/375hp L78 M21 3.73 Fathom green/medium green interior

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewP...695&p=33013081
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 1st, 02, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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here is a pic from his welding section:


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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 1st, 02, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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It was an ex-racecar, checkout this door!

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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 1st, 02, 04:35 PM
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how much will that car pull on the market when it's done? looks sweet.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 1st, 02, 07:51 PM
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i'd like to talk to the guy that owns the car after it is running again. he would say something like this-
"it is original, but i had to replace the floors, doors, parts of the firewall, cut out a cage, find interior pieces,and repaint it, but it is all original-see, a factory chalk mark."
the only way to truly make the car like it came from the factory would be to do a rebody. when they put it back together, i bet they lined everything up and made everything fit way better than the General ever did, and the paint is shiny and perfect.that would not be "correct".in my opinion, this would be alright to "rebody", with a body that was made around the same time.people date code pulleys and belts, so why not a body?
let the "conversation" begin.

------------------
1971 Nova(looks like 69 camaro from underneath!)
355sb, vortec heads, HOT cam,T-10 tranny, 3.70 gears 16" IROC wheels
see pics here http://community.webshots.com/user/novaderrik

[This message has been edited by novaderrik (edited 01-01-2002).]
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 1st, 02, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
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Novaderrik, that is kind of why I posted the pics and website. I know there has been some posts lately asking when does a car stop being the same car that left the factory. I mean, when you replace nearly every body panel except for the firewall, is it still a ZL1? Still a cool car with alot of history and a great story. I wonder how bad the body panels were that they all needed replacement or did the restorer want to save the originals with the decals?
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 2nd, 02, 03:27 AM
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I have to agree with novaderrik - how can these "restorations" be considered cars when the only original sheet metal pieces are the firewall and roof. In this months Camaro Performers magazine there is a similar car, a radio/heater delete 69 big block car. In the article they actually say that they replaced every single possible sheet metal panel, including the floor pans. At least they used NOS panels....so what?

I am not saying that these cars are not great pieces, or that they are not awsome projects, but they are no more restorations than Revell models.

I was looking at a 69 375HP 396 the other day - inspection stamps on the firewall, correct "everything" as I was told. 60,000 miles, frame off restoration only ten years ago. It is not a numbers matching car, but the motor is date code and option correct. So what? To my thinking, this car and others like it might as well be inline six glide cars that were converted.

My two bits......SHEET METAL makes the car. A car should have original sheet metal (welded together at the factory) to be considered a "true restoration". From there you need the original motor for "numbers matching" - not something close.

None of that, however takes anything away from the importance of the ZL1 - just don't tell us it is original.
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 2nd, 02, 08:06 AM
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i had to replace the lh quarter on my 69 z and it is non numbers matching so now it isnt a real z28? ill let you guys think what you want but just listen. my car left the factory with option number Z/28 and just because the motor isnt number mathcing (it is an original DZ motor) dosnt make the option that was assigned to my car dissappear, the thing is all unrestored (the car was broadsided in 1973 and had a repaint and new doorskin and quarter on the right side and the new quarter panel in installed) with 50,000 original miles, underaide it in a coat of scale rust. anyone who told me i didnt have a real z would be insane. think about it and let me know what you think

[This message has been edited by 69z (edited 01-02-2002).]
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 2nd, 02, 09:51 AM
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I cannot believe that someone would post that a car with replaced metal during a restoration is not a real car and is now devalued. Why would one think that? Where did "restoration" come from, I do not believe that it ment no metal replacement, I do think it means bring a object back to what it represented when it was manufactured no matter what has to be done. In a case of a piece of antique furniture, if you have to replace a piece of cracked wood is now not an original? What about cars that were hand built sheet metal in the first place, like a Ferrari that had all hand formed metal? During the restoration I would bet you would have to fabricate new metal? What is this car now? It is worth a Million.(the right model) But I hope my point of view is close.
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 2nd, 02, 09:57 AM
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James67RS, I think everyone's definition of a "true restoration" is a little different. What if I only had to replace a fender? Let's say I have a ZL1, all original down to the fan belt, in perfect condition except it has a crunched fender. Now I put an NOS fender on it and match the paint perfectly. I am an honest person, so when I decide to sell the car (yeah, I am crazy), I tell the prospective buyers that I had to replace a fender. Can I call it a "true restoration" car? By your definition, I don't think I would be able to, but I think I could. It's not 100% original anymore (another subjective definition), but I can't see why I can't call it a restored car.

"Numbers matching" is another subjective definition. Some say that if you have a correct date coded block, and stamp it with all the correct numbers, then you have a numbers matching block. Others call it a re-stamp. It's obviously not original, but these definitions sure leave a lot of room for interpretation. They also get misused and abused more than they need to. I think that happens in any place where money changes hands. The fancy buzzwords translate into dollar signs. It's an unfortunate side effect of the business. The best thing we can do is be educated, and educate others by sharing information.

Don't even get me started on all the parts that show up on EBay described as NOS, yet are still available from GM. Someone needs to help them out with the "O" in NOS.

-Marc
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 2nd, 02, 09:59 AM
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I forgot. In the case of this car, I do not like the way it was done. I my opinion you do not cut a car in half and weld it to another one. My professional opion is that you repair what is there with "used" pieces if you need to, but you do it one area at a time in the factory spot weld areas. I would never want this car at any price. I would think that by the pics of how it started that new inners and a seat back upright would have cured quite a bit, then put 100% quarters from GM, then "used" floors removed from the "donor" car, then put in the way the factory did it. But then again the way they reused the doors(an easy replacement)makes me really wonder. How would the new owner like to take off a door panel and see the holes? Once again all this is just my .02.

------------------
69 Z, lets see a 2nd 69 Z and oh yes a 69 RS, sh*t I forgot a 69 Coupe and oh yes a 70 El Co(LS1) and my 86/95 Chevy Van and darn the '00 Blazer.
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 2nd, 02, 01:24 PM
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Well if nothing else, that got the ball rolling. Maybe I overstated it, or maybe I should have clarified a couple of points. Let me do that now.

1. Sheetmetal makes the car - I stand by that. Replace a fender, a quarter, heck, replace both fenders and both quarters - I would agree that this is still "the car". But when you replace every piece of sheetmetal except the roof or firewall the car is gone.

2. If the motor in the car is not the motor that came with the car, it is not "original" and truly "numbers matching". The practice of restamping blocks to meet the needs of collectors will ultimately devalue the concept of numbers matching anyway. Numbers correct is not the same as numbers matching.

3. What is wrong with originality, even if it is wrong. Look at the Z-28 and the ZL-1...In 1969 and 1970, you used to take your car to the race track, drive the bag off of it until either the block or transmission blew apart then went back to the dealer for warranty. Time passed, stuff happened. You are right, a non original DZ 302 does not make your Z-28 any less of a Z-28, but should it be worth as much as a Z-28 in similar condition with the original motor. I would not think so, but I personally would prefer the car with the history over the car that sat on jack stands, especially if documentation is there for the warranty work.

4. Consider this, with this 69 ZL-1. The car was cut in half and welded to another donor shell. What makes the finished product a ZL-1? The fact that that option is the most valuable? The fact that the firewall is from a ZL-1? If that is the case, why not just weld the ZL-1 firewall in a base car? What would have happened if the ZL-1 was the back of the car? Heck, if this guy played it right, could he have had two ZL-1s?


[This message has been edited by James67RS (edited 01-02-2002).]
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 2nd, 02, 01:49 PM
 
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Although this car IS a real ZL1, or some of the car, What was the doner car? was it one of tracytracys Z/28 parts cars or a 12336 base? So would it be a cloned X-44 Classic Industries, C and V Classic poster car or a "restored" ZL1? I think it had more appeal with the stickers and roll cage! thats what the car was ment for. He does do awesome work! You think he could whip up a nice Yenko for me if I had some original SYC valve covers?

Just my .02
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 2nd, 02, 02:09 PM
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Here is my .02 worth, I think the car is and always will be a ZL1, even with the surgery, am glad to know that our cars are being restored at all cost, I know it isn't the way that the General built it back in the Sixtes, but heck, there aren't many that are, Most collector cars are built and restored this way because they are "collector cars" I remember a show where they restored Duesenburgs using the original blueprints to remanfacture parts that they could not obtain, does that make the car any less valuable?

------------------
69 rallye green X77 Z/28,1967 SS 396 Conv. 1974 c-10 454 swb
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old Jan 2nd, 02, 02:29 PM
 
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Although this car IS a real ZL1, or some of the car, What was the doner car? was it one of tracytracys Z/28 parts cars or a 12336 base? So would it be a cloned X-44 Classic Industries, C and V Classic poster car or a "restored" ZL1? I think it had more appeal with the stickers and roll cage! thats what the car was ment for. He does do awesome work! You think he could whip up a nice Yenko for me if I had some original SYC valve covers?

Just my .02
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