Cooling Question - Electric vs. Mechanical - Team Camaro Tech
Tech 2002 General Tech questions from 2002
Replies ONLY, no new topics.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 02:19 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
James
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Posts: 401
Well I finally have the '67 on the road and am wondering about a possible cooling issue. Yesterday it was about 85 to 90 and I was out cruising and the temperature got to about 200-205. Not really bad but warm enough - I would like to loose 5 to 10 degrees.

Engine is an HP500 EFI - 502 inches, fuel injected, 500HP/500 ft.lbs at the rear wheels, TH400, stock GM steel waterpump - reverse rotation (serpentine belt), first generation Griffin radiator, Black Magic electric fan.

Question is, should I look at a mechanical or an electric water pump? I have been considering a Stewart pump or another brand of high flow aluminum pump but have been wondering about a billet electric pump like the CSI. The car is almost always street driven and just don't know about the electric pump on the street.

Any comments?
http://www.adivanman.homestead.com/camaro.html


[This message has been edited by James67RS (edited 05-07-2002).]
James67RS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 03:25 AM
Retired
Jim
 
click's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 15,968
If you dont use Synthetic oil already, change over to that and you might see several degrees cooler right away. Amsoil and Mobile One are excellent products for cooling by reducing friction. Lots of folks in this site have had great results this way.
click


------------------
69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,4.10 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS
click is offline  
post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 06:17 AM
Super Moderator
Bess-68's rule
 
Everett#2390's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Va Beach VA
Posts: 31,623
Garage
My thoughts are these,

It's EFI, leaner fuel mixture, going to run hotter, especially w/this kind of power its generating.

My dually(454/auto/no OD) has always ran warm, 240-250 degF, three dealers asked, Does it build pressure? I replied, Yes. Does it boil over? I replied, No. They said, No problem!

I'd probably put on a 20-22 lb. rad cap, a high-flow Robertshaw thermostat, a zinc anode, because of the alum, and a mixture of 30/70 anti-freeze/water with a can of Water wetter.

If this didn't work, then add an Edelbrock Victor series water pump and a TRW or Hayden RV/Heavy Duty clutch fan to the above step.


------------------
Everett 68/350/PG/11.90/115mph
Everett#2390 is offline  
 
post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 06:34 AM
Senior Tech
Lonnie
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 744
Electric water pumps do not work as good as the stock pump. Your problem is that POS fan.

------------------
67 Camaro, strip/street 410sb 11.63 @117.6
67 Camaro, daily driver 388 12.07 @112
website
Lonnie67 is offline  
post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 07:16 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
James
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Posts: 401
click - while thats true and it will probably help, I have another couple of hours before I switch to synthetic. I know that times have changed but I was brought up to break the motor in on conventional and switch to synthetic one the rings had fully seated.

Everett - I am switching to a 20# rad cap from the 12-16 that I have been running, just as an experiment. I am not running a thermostat (not much point here) but a restrictor, which I may play with tonight (might try a smaller one).

Lonnie - Heck of a statement or two. I can't disagree with the the electric vs. conventional comment beyond saying that when I was racing the car I liked to run an electric water pump drive to cool it down quickly between rounds. I have never run an electric pump on the street myself and was hoping to hear from someone who had. As to the Black Magic fan, POS is a fairly stout statement for a 2700 cfm piece. Care to elaborate?
James67RS is offline  
post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 07:35 AM
Retired
Jim
 
click's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 15,968
Correct James, definately allow break in first. Up to 2000 miles should be enough. Glad you are considering syn's.Dont forget the cotton depth filter for your oil filter as well.
click


------------------
69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,4.10 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS
click is offline  
post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 07:47 AM
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 925
Electric fans usually only work by themselves if they are huge like as in an 18 inch, otherwise put a mechanical fan on and stick that electrical on the front of the radiator. Electric pumps are a no-no on the street! Definetly put the high pressure cap on and definetly run a thermostat.

------------------
http://hometown.aol.com/autumnnatalie/index.html
cody is offline  
post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 08:54 AM
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Rozenburg, The Netherlands, Europe
Posts: 467
There a several high quality electrical waterpumps very well suited for high performance street use! Most of the old style drag race type are not, but technology advances quickly. Check these sites, but i am sure there are more. http://www.waterpumps.com/ http://www.meziere.com/
Dutch69Camar is offline  
post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 08:55 AM
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 233
I would put an electric fan instead. An electric water pump is not made for everyday use. Take off the manual fan and put on an electric. Will run cooler and gain 5-10 HP too.
4U 2 NV is offline  
post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 08:56 AM
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 233
I would put an electric fan instead. An electric water pump is not made for everyday use. Take off the manual fan and put on an electric. Will run cooler and gain 5-10 HP too.
4U 2 NV is offline  
post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 09:02 AM
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Rozenburg, The Netherlands, Europe
Posts: 467
4U 2 NV, why do you say these pumps are not suited for daily use, i don't see why this should be the case.
Dutch69Camar is offline  
post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 09:20 AM
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Rozenburg, The Netherlands, Europe
Posts: 467
sorry double post

[This message has been edited by Dutch69Camar (edited 05-07-2002).]
Dutch69Camar is offline  
post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 09:26 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
James
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Posts: 401
The Black Magic fan is electric - 2700 cfm and is designed as a puller with it's own shroud. I am not running a mechanical fan.
James67RS is offline  
post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 10:51 AM
Senior Tech
Lonnie
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 744
Sorry, I was in a hurry earlier.

I replaced a flex fan with a Black Magic fan. I had the same huge Aluminum radiator that I have now. My car ran 20+ degrees hotter than with the flex fan. I didn't want to take it off because it gave me .2 in the quarter.

When the outside temps started getting high, 90+, I could not use it. I bought a '99 Lincoln Mark VIII fan and it works awesome. I don't know what cfm it is rated at, but it is at least 2X what the Black Magic is. On 110+ degree days it will run 195 or less, and actually cools down at idle. Under 100 degrees out it will hold 180.

With the Black Magic on a hot day in traffic, 90's, my temp went to 230+. 210 is the highest it ever got with the flex fan.

My buddy replaced his clutch fan with a Mark VIII fan and gained nothing, didn't loose anything either. Temp or ET.

I have this fan and big radiators on both of my Camaros and they both run equally cool.

Sorry for bashing your fan, but it is not up for the job. I sold it on Ebay for $117. Mark VIII cost $99 from Houston performance.

There is several threads on this fan, here and on the Chevelle site.

Lonnie

------------------
67 Camaro, strip/street 410sb 11.63 @117.6
67 Camaro, daily driver 388 12.07 @112
website
Lonnie67 is offline  
post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old May 7th, 02, 02:56 PM
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: DULUTH, GA.
Posts: 917
There are some good suggestions here and I have designed systems for 502s in several applications and will admit, they are not easy motors to cool due to the inherent smaller coolant passages and siamiese cylinder design. They are a marine block afterall.

Synthetic oil might make some difference, but you want to run that anyway. Great suggestion.

Your readings of 200+ is not that bad at all. Like one poster mentioned, as long as your are keeping coolant in, you are fine and the suggestion of a higher pressure cap is great.

The suggestion of cutting back on antifreeze is an excellent one! Antifreeze degrades the absorbtion of heat. The more water the better. You can run straight water if you use a anticorrosion additive and have plenty of pressure to boot.

Do not use reducers. FLOW IS KING, FLOW IS KING, FLOW IS KING...kinda get the idea. Reducers will impede flow and reduce the efficiency of the system as their name suggests. Use a thermostat...a 195 is perfect and for Pete's sake do not run it without anything. That is a whole other science lesson in flow.

YOur aluminum radiator is a great idea and aluminum is the best media for cooling. Is that a 1", 1.25" model? Bigger tubes have more area for cooling and flow better. Remember the flow thing?

The water pump on the 502s are minimal at best. I would change it. DO NOT USE AN ELECTRIC PUMP EITHER, they are STILL not for the street. The typical high performance water pump will easily triple the flow output of the best electric ones! Check all the charts out...you will see what I mean. Remember the flow thing?

The Black Magic fan is not what it's cracked up to be in my opinion. I would change it last for more airflow. I have tested the fan and the suggestion of going to either a Windstar twin fan unit or the Mark VIII is an EXCELLENT choice.

You can run overdrive pulleys but are stuck with the serp system already in place (there is a system called ConceptOne that overdrives the waterpump and alternator that are made especially for this engine). This is an increase in coolant flow as well. Remember the flow thing?

Lastly, but not leastly.....go to my cooling forum at www.inccn.net/techforum.htm for other ideas. I have alot of happy and cool Florida customers.

------------------
STEVE JACK
Engineering and Marketing Technologies
Techical forum/links at www.inccn.net/techforum.htm


[This message has been edited by HOTRODSRJ (edited 05-07-2002).]
HOTRODSRJ is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome