4 speed problem solved!! Please read!! - Team Camaro Tech
Tech 2002 General Tech questions from 2002
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post #1 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 11th, 02, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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Jim
 
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Well boys, It's officially over!! I have figured out my problem on the 4 speed hole on my 69 being off... Rick's Camaro's has been lookinginto this problem for me, AND it seems that a 3 speed saginaw car has the shifter hole 1 and 1/2 inches Back from the second rib(you know what I mean)to the opening, and the 4 speed cars have the opening at THREE inches from the second rib.
Welll, first , I've been had on my original z-28. I called the guy I bought the car from, and he admitted that he had wrecked the original body beyond fixing, and bought the car I have now as the replacement. He took every nut and bolt off of the old car, and changed the vin plates and everything. Took me back behind his house and showed me the carcass of the dead z-28. Still got the car less than the parts, sooooo, do I have a z-28 or not?
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post #2 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 11th, 02, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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By the way, I took the measurement on the opening, went back 1 and 1/2 inches back and made the hole bigger, took the piece and welded the cut out piece in the front of the old hole and PRESTO!!! Shifter hole in the right spot...
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post #3 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 11th, 02, 06:12 PM
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David Pozzi
 
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Did he change the hidden VIN stamped under the cowl panel?
Did he use the correct rivets on the VIN tag?
If he didn't use the correct rivets, and the car is checked, the officials will use the second vin under the cowl as the official VIN.
David

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post #4 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 12:30 AM
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I would say you have a Z-28 thats been rebodied.I don't think its such a bad thing but others might dissagree.How was it described when he sold it to you?Why didn't he tell you before you bought it?I'm surprised he admitted it to you.
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post #5 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 01:46 AM
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Ouch, You have a problem there. It is against federal and state law to switch the VIN tags on a vehicle. In most states, it's a felony. There are two confidential VIN's on the 69. One is on the cowl under the cowl panel on the right side and the other is under the blower motor/heater core cover on the firewall. The con number is a derivative of the full VIN and contains 8 numbers. The last five are the build sequence and must match the last five on the dash. I sure hope the previous owner intends to give you back some of your money because you don't have a genuine Z28. Good Luck

------------------
69 SS, 350, 4 Speed
75 400, 4 Speed
93 Z28, 6 Speed
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post #6 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 03:16 AM
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Are you sure that a 1969 Camaro has the VIN derivative under the blower motor/heater core cover on the firewall?? I thought the only place a VIN derivative was stamped was on the top of the cowl, passenger side, which can be seen thru the vent on the cowl/wiper panel. My car is totally stripped to the shell and has no VIN stamped by blower motor area. LA car.
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post #7 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 03:58 AM Thread Starter
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I'll try to answer all questions via my explanation....

Number 1. I got the whole car plus parts (it was completely disasembled when I got the car-to the last nut and bolt)for 5000.00, it came with about 4500 worth of N.O.S. parts alone, right motor, trans with busted tail piece, rear end, brakes, brackets, you name it, it was there. some stuff missing, figure that the original car owner changed out the shifter, etc.

2. the body I got with the deal has no rust to speak of-the original car was a yankee car (no offense) and a rust bucket.

3. Was I pissed about the whole deal? Yea for about 10 minutes...the guy KEPT MY MONEY READILY AVAILABLE TO REFUND IT BACK TO ME. I told the dude that I had figured out the deal on the car, he came over and looked it over and offered me 10K over what I had paid him for the car, and it isn't finished. I turned him down, of course.

4. My question is this, If I took the original body, crushed rust bucket that it is, took this excellent body and cut every panel out and rewelded it around the original vin numbers, do I still have a rebodied car? What would be the difference and the smarts in doing that Vs. cutting the Vin tags and attaching them to a better body? I know that some of you are going to shout the legal aspects, but when they came down the line at time of assembly where they christened or did virgins annoint them as holy? I don't think so. Comments?

5. Do I feel that I have an original Z-28? Every piece and part of the car is original, front pieces, suspension, brakes, shifter, all of the guages, steering wheel, seats , exaust, motor , trans, rear end, gas tank, alternator and on and on. I dont have a 68 or a 67 built to look like a 69. It is a 69 z-28. Let the shouts begin!!!
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post #8 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 04:09 AM Thread Starter
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Lets remember that it's I that this has happened to. I am grateful to this site and the input from it. If I sell this car I will explaine the deal with the vin and the wrecked car , etc. This has probably been debated a couple hundred times on this and numerous site like it (but not as good as). Fella's, lets debate this fairly and in good faith, I'm not pissed any more, I do hate people rippin off other folks, but remember, We have all learned something here- that saginaw cars have the cut out hole 1 and 1/2 inches closer to the second rib than the 4 speed cars do!! Another way to tell if a car is a fake or not... Agreed? Some thing good has come of all of this and thank you Ricks Camaro's for going to the trouble and time to take an original car, peel back the carpet and do measurements for me!!!
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post #9 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 04:11 AM Thread Starter
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Oh and by the way, I paid 7k for the car with parts, not 5k as stated earlier, sorry.
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post #10 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 05:38 AM
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This is the downside to the automotive hobby. In your eyes you have a Z/28 and for all logical reasons you do. Logic doesn't play to the purist in the hobby. If you are honest at the time of sale, perspective buyers are going to hold up a cross and be wearing garlic around their necks as they pass by you. Well, unless you sell it at a clone or non Z price. If you don't tell the story behind the car and it's done well, you'll get top dollar. Then you have to live with the fact that maybe there will be another little something (much like how you found out) that gives it away and the new owner comes after you.

What happened to the vin and cowl tags from the doner car? (This is way out there, but so are so many of the real stories I've heard) What if they end up in the hands of a chop shop or one of the friends of the guy that sold you the car (someone with less than honesty on his mind). They could build a beater with your cars real tags, have it titled and report it stolen. The finger gets pointed at your car (hidden vin or some other tell tail you don't know about) and guess who looses?

I'm not saying all this to make you feel like you got screwed or that you can't have a cool car from all this. When I read your words I sense you are looking for afermation that you have a Z/28 not a 6cyl transplanted with Z parts. At this point it's how you feel not me or the others.

If it were mine I would not try to make a correct restored Z out of it! At the price you paid for it I'd be thinking Pro-Touring Z/28; EFI-302ci, 6speed, near stock interior and big wheels with Z rated 40 series tires... Trick out the suspension and maybe build your own version of the Z/28. Leave the badges and stripes... There were more than 20,000 Z's in '69, the world isn't going to miss one more. You can actually end up with a bas *** car with a Z heart!! If it's your only Camaro, you'll have more fun too!!

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...Dennis
"The '69, the '96 & the club"
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post #11 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 08:35 AM
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Hell Yes! Thatís what I am shooting for. Mine was a 6, but now a 425Hp V8, and still rising. Almost have the VA installed. Anyway, I personally donít care much for the stock cars, I do Respect anyone who does, and do respect the heritage. I think they are the best muscle car ever made, but you can make them so much sweeter. When you take the bicycle tires off, and the flying saucer rims. Trim. Etc. ad 2 more gears, 200 more Horsepower, etc. etc. anyway I hope that helps. I am sorry to hear your plans changed so much. You have so many parts, if you still need that authentic feeling, you might want to just find z28 in a field somewhere, and begin.

-John
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post #12 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 09:17 AM
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There are prisons for guys like the one who sold you the car. I think you handled it very well. My hats off to you. I am not a purist by any means. I can't understand why some people go to extremes to duplicate the errors the factory made and then trailer the cars to shows. They are missing out on the real fun of the hobby. I've always felt you could build a lot nicer car than GM did with their 40 year old technology and take a lot more pride in doing it yourself. I don't have much time to listen to a guy at a show when I discover he didn't do any of the work himself. I appreciate their efforts for restoring and preserving history, but they really can't take pride in the machine because they had nothing to do with it's construction. I do respect the guy that does the frame off, tries to do what he can himself, contracts out what he can't handle and learns a great deal along the way. Also for guys that buy there cars done, they're never done because we all make changes to suit ourselves, and learns everything he can about it and modifies it to suit his tastes. Those are the guys I want to talk to and I think the majority of fellas and gals on this site are of this type of hobbyist.

That said you got a great deal on a very nice 69 Camaro. Is it a Z? No. But to me it's a lot closer to one than a car that came off the assembly line wearing the badges, but now has a 350 engine or an auto trans installed because the "owner was tired of shifting". Unless its an original car with a 302 to me it's no longer a Z, I walk away from these cars all the time at shows. I've got no interest in them, just my opinion. If you want to modify a car start with a base model, like this guy did, just leave the Vin tag alone. Enjoy your car, because it sounds like a very nice street car that many of use would love to own and drive. The second part is the most important....DRIVE the car. I understand a car can be too nice to drive, but why own it? Pointing at it and saying there's my car as it sits day after day is not where the pleasures at for most people.

I would be concerned about where the other VIN tag went, if this guy built one bogus car, he may build another with your VIN tag on it.

Good luck,
Dave
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post #13 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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I dragged the hunk of junk to my house....
my wife(who allows for my hobby) asked what in the heck was doing dragging that garbage scowl to her house. I put it behind my garage.
DJD, this is obviously your site, but cut us all some slack! If I took the good body and welded all of the non crushed rusted parts to the original body, would I then have a "real" z-28? the general tone of your responce is one of disdane and dissention. I would not sell the car as an original as it now stands, but could I do it if I spend 12000 fixing the carcass all of the parts came into the world on?
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post #14 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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Jim
 
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well how about the difference in the shifter hole? Did every body know this and not let me know??? SOMETHING GOOD CAME FROM THIS!
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post #15 of 68 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 02, 04:28 PM
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...gawa, This site is not mine as you suggest!! When I post it's as DjD not as an administrator. I promise you when I put on the admin hat you'll know it!

You are taking my posting totally wrong... The only thing I said that might even upset you is the fact that you are looking for afermation that you bought a real Z/28. That's a perfectly normal thing that can happen under the circumstances!!

If what I posted bothers you it should, this poop happens all the time and it might be me instead of you the next time. I'm sympethetic to you for being deceived but my opinion is make sure the deception stops in it's tracks. I care what you do with your car but I'll defend you to do as you wish with it. I also care what happens to others and that should be obvious in that I point out how things can snowball on you and you could be left without a car or the cash you've put into it! There was not an ounce of intent to offend you when I wrote what I did. It seems to have done just that so for that I apologize. If having a numbers matching correct Z/28 is what you are all about with your car so be it.

I stand by what I said when it's time to sell that car. Tell your story and a purist won't touch it, keep your mouth shut and get top dollar, unless you don't know your camaros as well as you think and miss something obvious!!

I could go back and take 1 or 2 sentences from all the other replys here and it would be far harsher but the same thing I have been saying.

I truly am sorry you fell in the poop and just tried to offer a a way out with suggesting a pro-touring Z/28... Ever read any of the car guy mags? Ever notice the vettes that get spotlighted? Funny most writers start out saying "Takes big ones to hotrod an old classic like this and purists will be rolling over in their graves but this ones done right"!! You have the perfect oppertunity guy (what is your name?) to do the same!! But again like I said it's your car!!! It's your call!!!

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...Dennis
"The '69, the '96 & the club"
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