396 4-SPD Z-11 PACE HOW RARE? - Team Camaro Tech
Tech 2002 General Tech questions from 2002
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 02, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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I have a real Z-11 396-325hp 4-speed. I am trying to find out the production number or how rare this car is. Can any of you guys tell me if there is a registry on these cars. From just looking through these posts and around different internet sites, theres not that many of them. I find big blocks and I find 4-speeds, but never the two together. I am sure someone or some of you guys on here own one. Any info is appreciated.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 9th, 02, 03:35 AM
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I own a small block/4 speed Z11 but I don't know how many big blocks were produced. There is a Z11 registry but I can't find it right now. I filled out the paperwork for mine and sent it in. I beleive the registry is in the old 'World Wide Camaro Club', but I'm not sure they exist any longer.

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Dave
'69 Z11 Pace Car, 350/4 speed, manual top, console w/gauges, tilt rosewood wheel, AM radio
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 9th, 02, 05:20 AM
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Not sure that there are definative numbers on the exact combination. There were over 4000 replica cars produced, I don't have the exact number on the top of my head. I think you can get a ball park idea bt looking at how many total BB cars were made compared to total camaros, come up with a percentage and apply it to the pace car. A good place to start your research is www.camaros.org , they have a .pdf doc you can download with most of the known production totals by year and option.

As for the World Wide Camaros they are a new organization that was created by Classic Chevys Int. who bought out the rights to the old US Camaro Club. I don't know if they have a pace car registry, I haven't seen anything made public or published...

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...Dennis
"The '69, the '96 our local club"
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 9th, 02, 06:16 AM
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GM did not keep records of option combinations, but if you use the percentages of the different options you can get a VERY rough estimate of cars produced with certain major options.

There were 3675 Z11's produced between both the LA and Norwood Plant.

In 69 there were 13659 big blocks produced out of 243,085 cars which is 5.62 percent of all cars.
Applying this to the 3675 total Z11's equals 206 big blocks.

there were 3692 TH-400 transmissions used in 69 which leaves roughly 10000 big blocks with 4 speeds. 13659-3692 = 9967 4 speed big block combos. This means 72.9 percent of all big blocks had a 4 speed.

In this example it means 72.9 percent of the 206 big block Z11's had a 4 speed which equals 150 cars.

206 big block Z11
150 Z11 big block/4spd
56 Z11 Big block/ TH-400

Small blocks are split almost evenly with 4 speeds (48%)and TH-350s (52%), and are harder to estimate because there are Z11's with PG's and 3 speed manual transmissions, which we will ignore for this purpose

3469 small block Z11's
1665 Z11 small block/4speed
1804 Z11 small block Auto trans

This is just an estimate of course your mileage may vary. Hopefully we won't see this qouted as official production numbers in the future, casue they aren't.

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Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
My 69 L48 - 350/300HP Engine
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 9th, 02, 06:55 AM
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Thanks for the correct number, I typed a 4 instead of 3...
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 9th, 02, 07:44 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replys. Although no definitive numbers, at least I have and idea. Mark, I'm not doubting your 4 speed to automatic ratio, but when I do find a 396 pace car it almost always has an automatic in it. About the same ratio reversed. I heard they mostly put automatics in the 396's to help prevent accidents when doing the parade laps at the races. Maybe those were special cars or something. Anyway, I apprciate the info.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 9th, 02, 11:21 AM
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There were only about a dozen big block cars at the actual race and not all of these were Automatics. The big blocks were the "officials" cars used by track personel, not the parade cars that were driven by almost anyone. The parade cars are all 350's most equipped with a TH-350 transmission. But there are a few 4 speeds sprinkled into the parade cars. It's tough to draw a conclusion on total production based on about 5% of the total population of Z11's all of which were built for a specific reason.

The numbers of big blocks, and TH-400 transmissions (only big blocks could have a TH-400) produced for all Camaros in the 69 model year are documented. Since there are only two transmissions types possible in a big block and all of them fall under the Generic M20 4 speed RPO (not to be confused with M-20 Muncies) all I did was take the number of TH-400s off the total number of big blocks produced to get the remaining cars with 4 speeds. Simple math. Now there may be other factors that lower the 4 spped ratio, like less convertibles were used for racing and more were just for cruising. It may not be as big a spread as I indicated but either way there were more big block 4 speeds than TH400 equipped cars.

The ratio's given is probably as close as your going to find without getting into a registry and checking it out for percentages.

------------------
Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
My 69 L48 - 350/300HP Engine

[This message has been edited by Mark C (edited 12-09-2002).]
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 9th, 02, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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I can live with that. Thanks again!!
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 10th, 02, 01:49 PM
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Just an update, I have info on 191 Z11's, and within that random population there are 28 big blocks, roughly 13% of the total, and 13 of these 28 have TH-400 (M40) automatic transmissions. So in this random mix of Z11's it would appear that there were more big blocks made than indicated by taking the production averages and applying it to Z11's, and that Auto to 4 Speed ratio is almost split 50/50.

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Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
My 69 L48 - 350/300HP Engine
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 10th, 02, 02:11 PM
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I think I have owned 4 69 Big Block Pace cars, 2 4 speeds and 2 autos....... I do see more autos out there though.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 11th, 02, 01:48 AM
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Mark, do you have info on my Z11?
If you want, I can send info (VIN) to you via email.

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Dave
'69 Z11 Pace Car, 350/4 speed, manual top, console w/gauges, tilt rosewood wheel, AM radio
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 11th, 02, 02:07 AM Thread Starter
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Mark,
I guess there are more of these out there than I thought. I go to a lot of car shows and have never seen one. Never been to Camaro's of Carlisle either. I live in Atlanta, maybe that has something to do with it.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 11th, 02, 03:09 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drdave69:
Mark, do you have info on my Z11?
If you want, I can send info (VIN) to you via email.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know if I do or not, but I'll take any info anyone has on these cars and want's to share. VIN, TRIM TAG info, option lists, pictures (especially of trim tags). If you sent the info to Kurt S. or the CRG then I probably have it. Anything you send me goes to the CRG for the Database, nothing ever gets released except for stuff like above. No specific info about any car or owner is made public.

With the proliferation of repro trim tags the CRG has started an effort to document Trim tags from all 3 first gen years to see if there are peculiar traits that can identify fake tags.

This applies to anyone who wants to contribute from Base 6 cyl coupes to ZL1's. If you send pictures of trim tags, try to make it 640 by 480 or better, JPG format, well focused and fill the picture with the entire tag as much as possible. Make sure you tell me the VIN the tag comes from as that is how they are filed. I've got a cable modem connection so don't worry about file sizes or quantities of images. We also look for images of interiors, under carriages, engine compartments, etc" from Unrestored-Original" or otherwise correct cars for use on the CRG site.

------------------
Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
My 69 L48 - 350/300HP Engine

[This message has been edited by Mark C (edited 12-11-2002).]
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 11th, 02, 11:34 PM
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Sorry to piggy back. Mark I have a couple 69s that are really far from original. One has an RS setup and the other is a V8 base model coupe. Do you guys still want the info? I am not really sure what either had for original options.

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Jeff
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[This message has been edited by ace841 (edited 12-12-2002).]
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 03:16 AM
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Sure, I'll take trim and VIN info from anyone who want's to share it, I'll forward it on to the CRG since the data submission page is down. If the car has been extensively modified just tell me what options you think the car came with.

I'll take images of trim tags, Engine stampings, casting numbers, VIN plates, hidden VIN's, etc from all cars. Just make sure you tell me the VIN that goes with any pictures, if it's not obvious from the picture (like and engine pad stamp). Images of things like interiors may eventually be linked off of the trim codes, so people can visualize the interior colors and trim colors. That's why I'm looking for stock images in addition to tags.

------------------
Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
My 69 L48 - 350/300HP Engine
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