Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 14, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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Scott
 
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Question Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

So my 69 has a Centerforce pressure plate with the weight system which came with the car.

It has the same vibration issue than many others have experienced and documented due to the Centerforce weighted pressure plate. I'm going to be removing the transmission and engine this winter so I have the following two questions for anyone that can answer them;

1. Does the Centerforce weight system on the pressure plate really add that much additional pressure to the clutch, or is it more of a marketing gimmick/hype?

2. Should I just replace the Centerforce clutch & pressure plate with something else or just cut the wire and remove the weight system?

(the correct answer to question #1 above may help with this decision, my concern IF I were to remove the weight system is if the pressure plate will then allow the clutch to slip. The car is powered by a SBC 406 with a Chris Straub squishy roller cam and some AFR 210 heads, so there is some power and torque that is being passed through the clutch and pressure plate assembly)

Thanks in advance for your replies
Scott

69 Camaro Z/28 RS, original Azure Turquoise, M21 & 3.73 12-bolt posi. NOM 406ci, AFR 210 heads, Straub hyd. roller cam & Dynatech 1-3/4" > 1-7/8" headers, QuickFuel 750 Annular. Photos at:
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post #2 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 14, 08:35 PM
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Wes
 
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

Does she vibrate in neutral at RPM? If so, do this,..

Remove the flywheel and PP. Take them both (and PP bolts) to a machine who can balance both, together. He will mark the 12 o'clock position on both parts he used for balancing and to be used on subsequent installation. (You'll likely have to turn the engine by hand to achieve the 12 o'clock position,..the flywheel needs to align with the "7th hole" on the crank flange).

Even the best PP's and flywheels on the market purchased brand new are not perfect no matter the brand (don't tell me otherwise). And even with the correct PP bolts with the 'shoulders', there's still "slop" in the mounting. That's why the 12 o'clock position is important. It guarantees the fly and PP will be mounted (gravity) in the exact same position as when it was balanced.

I'm sure you'll be shocked when your machine shop tells you the amount of weight he moved around,..20g, 30g, 40g, 50g, etc,..and on brand new parts.

If after this, if you still have vibration, you'll next need to neutrally balance your balancer.

But, there's a 95% chance the problem is in the PP and/or flywheel.

After several bouts of 'vibration issues' suffered myself on several cars (usually higher RPM'ers) , I'll never install a new fly or PP without them being balanced prior, together.

Good luck!

Last edited by Straight-line-69; Oct 14th, 14 at 08:48 PM.
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post #3 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 14, 08:41 PM
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Don
 
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

I would check to see if all weights are on the finger ring. If one is missing , that could be your problem. I have run the CFII single disc set up for over 10 years , never a problem but I feel guilty as before I was always swapping to other name brand stuff.

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #4 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 14, 05:54 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight-line-69 View Post
Does she vibrate in neutral at RPM? If so, do this,..

Remove the flywheel and PP. Take them both (and PP bolts) to a machine who can balance both, together. He will mark the 12 o'clock position on both parts he used for balancing and to be used on subsequent installation. (You'll likely have to turn the engine by hand to achieve the 12 o'clock position,..the flywheel needs to align with the "7th hole" on the crank flange).

Even the best PP's and flywheels on the market purchased brand new are not perfect no matter the brand (don't tell me otherwise). And even with the correct PP bolts with the 'shoulders', there's still "slop" in the mounting. That's why the 12 o'clock position is important. It guarantees the fly and PP will be mounted (gravity) in the exact same position as when it was balanced.

I'm sure you'll be shocked when your machine shop tells you the amount of weight he moved around,..20g, 30g, 40g, 50g, etc,..and on brand new parts.

If after this, if you still have vibration, you'll next need to neutrally balance your balancer.

But, there's a 95% chance the problem is in the PP and/or flywheel.

After several bouts of 'vibration issues' suffered myself on several cars (usually higher RPM'ers) , I'll never install a new fly or PP without them being balanced prior, together.

Good luck!
Thanks Straight-line-69 for the balancing suggestion and detailed steps on how it should be done. She doesn't vibrate in neutral at idle, but you begin to feel it at about 2,000 rpm. When in gear and just cruising at over 2,000 rpm, the vibration will much of the time will cause the clutch pedal/rod to rattle and sometimes I think even the brake pedal rattles as well which is extremely annoying. If I put just a slight amount of foot pressure on the clutch pedal (not enough to slip the clutch, just very gentle pressure), the rattle disappears but I can feel the vibration in the clutch pedal.

I have a new clutch fork return spring and extension that is mounted to the correct factory hole in the motor mount stand and the foam pad is in place where the clutch pedal arm returns to when the clutch pedal is in the released position. Two seasons ago I removed the transmission and all clutch components including the flywheel and they all looked to be in pretty good shape including the resting height/position of all the pressure plate diagram spring fingers. The vibration and rattle was there before I removed the transmission so I cleaned everything up and put it back in with no change.

69 Camaro Z/28 RS, original Azure Turquoise, M21 & 3.73 12-bolt posi. NOM 406ci, AFR 210 heads, Straub hyd. roller cam & Dynatech 1-3/4" > 1-7/8" headers, QuickFuel 750 Annular. Photos at:
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post #5 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 14, 06:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdld17 View Post
I would check to see if all weights are on the finger ring. If one is missing , that could be your problem. I have run the CFII single disc set up for over 10 years , never a problem but I feel guilty as before I was always swapping to other name brand stuff.
Don, when I had it apart two seasons ago I cleaned and inspected all parts. I didn't count how many weights were on the pressure plate finger ring but I did take some photographs that I could look back at. Any idea how many weights should be there?

I wish I had another non-weighted pressure plate laying around that I could swap out to see if the vibration changes, that still wouldn't answer the question if it's the weight system Centerforce uses or just a poorly balanced setup though.

I also wonder if it's a case of the weights sticking in an out of balance location at times. I live in the northeast so we see all kinds of weather, with that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if a weighted system pressure plate like this is not such a great solution for the area I live...

69 Camaro Z/28 RS, original Azure Turquoise, M21 & 3.73 12-bolt posi. NOM 406ci, AFR 210 heads, Straub hyd. roller cam & Dynatech 1-3/4" > 1-7/8" headers, QuickFuel 750 Annular. Photos at:
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post #6 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 14, 07:01 AM
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Don
 
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NH69Z28RS View Post
Don, when I had it apart two seasons ago I cleaned and inspected all parts. I didn't count how many weights were on the pressure plate finger ring but I did take some photographs that I could look back at. Any idea how many weights should be there?

I wish I had another non-weighted pressure plate laying around that I could swap out to see if the vibration changes, that still wouldn't answer the question if it's the weight system Centerforce uses or just a poorly balanced setup though.

I also wonder if it's a case of the weights sticking in an out of balance location at times. I live in the northeast so we see all kinds of weather, with that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if a weighted system pressure plate like this is not such a great solution for the area I live...
Better explained here but back in the 60's, a plate like this was needed if you had a stock flat finger diaphragm plate. Also keep clutch pedal from sticking to floor between high rpm shifts. One reason I started running the ford Long style plates . All this was before Centerforce came out.

http://www.centerforce.com/technolog...rforce-weights

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #7 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 14, 07:26 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdld17 View Post
Better explained here but back in the 60's, a plate like this was needed if you had a stock flat finger diaphragm plate. Also keep clutch pedal from sticking to floor between high rpm shifts. One reason I started running the ford Long style plates . All this was before Centerforce came out.

http://www.centerforce.com/technolog...rforce-weights

I understand how the weight system is supposed to work, thanks for the link. I went back and looked at the photos I took during inspection/cleaning last time I had it out, there were 18 weights present which is what is shown in the photo at the link you included so all weights are present.

69 Camaro Z/28 RS, original Azure Turquoise, M21 & 3.73 12-bolt posi. NOM 406ci, AFR 210 heads, Straub hyd. roller cam & Dynatech 1-3/4" > 1-7/8" headers, QuickFuel 750 Annular. Photos at:
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post #8 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 14, 07:26 AM
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

i just went thru this same issue, my car had a vib at 3800 to 4200 no mater what gear you were in, so i pulled the tko 600 removed the clutch weights, put it back together and still had the same vib so, i removed trans and clutch again and took the pp to be balanced to my surprise the pp was right on, put it all back together accept the tail pipes from the 2.5" magna flow system, no more vib, put the tail pipes on vib was back, i know it sounds silly, but you may want to check your exhaust

ps my motor is an external balanced 383, my car had no vib in neutral, only in gear and only from 3800 to 4200 rpm's
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post #9 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 14, 07:27 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

What should I expect to pay for having the flywheel and pressure plate balanced, just so I don't end up getting taken?

69 Camaro Z/28 RS, original Azure Turquoise, M21 & 3.73 12-bolt posi. NOM 406ci, AFR 210 heads, Straub hyd. roller cam & Dynatech 1-3/4" > 1-7/8" headers, QuickFuel 750 Annular. Photos at:
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post #10 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 14, 08:32 PM
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NH69Z28RS View Post
What should I expect to pay for having the flywheel and pressure plate balanced, just so I don't end up getting taken?
It may depend on how much work is needed to the parts to bring them 'zero' balance. Budget from $100 to $150,..a bit expensive I know, but well worth it.

Also, the engine will start to 'eat itself' if you have unbalanced components.

Good luck!
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post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 14, 10:38 PM
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

Just an opinion on removing the weights. I tried removing the weights on mine when I was having a sticky clutch issue and found the weights definitely help the clutch lock up under hard throttle. My engine dyno'd out at 551 hp and without the weights on, I tore the facing off the clutch on one side after it slipped in a hard shift into second. I replaced the clutch plate and left the weights on the new pressure plate and now locks up well even at 6500 rpm shifts and over.
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post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 16th, 14, 05:12 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight-line-69 View Post
It may depend on how much work is needed to the parts to bring them 'zero' balance. Budget from $100 to $150,..a bit expensive I know, but well worth it.

Also, the engine will start to 'eat itself' if you have unbalanced components.

Good luck!
Great, thanks.

69 Camaro Z/28 RS, original Azure Turquoise, M21 & 3.73 12-bolt posi. NOM 406ci, AFR 210 heads, Straub hyd. roller cam & Dynatech 1-3/4" > 1-7/8" headers, QuickFuel 750 Annular. Photos at:
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post #13 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 16th, 14, 05:15 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bill3337 View Post
Just an opinion on removing the weights. I tried removing the weights on mine when I was having a sticky clutch issue and found the weights definitely help the clutch lock up under hard throttle. My engine dyno'd out at 551 hp and without the weights on, I tore the facing off the clutch on one side after it slipped in a hard shift into second. I replaced the clutch plate and left the weights on the new pressure plate and now locks up well even at 6500 rpm shifts and over.
Bill, your reply answers one of my questions and is the reason why I was concerned about removing the weights. Depending on how much clutch disc material is left when I remove it this time will determine if I spend the money balancing it or replace it with a new setup.

Outside of the weighted Centerforce clutch kits, what other clutch kits from other manufacturers are worth looking into?

69 Camaro Z/28 RS, original Azure Turquoise, M21 & 3.73 12-bolt posi. NOM 406ci, AFR 210 heads, Straub hyd. roller cam & Dynatech 1-3/4" > 1-7/8" headers, QuickFuel 750 Annular. Photos at:
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post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 16th, 14, 06:18 PM
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

I can tell you this,,,,

I had a bad vibration in my car since the engine was done in 1997.

I redid my engine a few months ago, long story, but the short is i found a good machinist and when he re-balanced my engine he said my "Billet" flywheel was wayyyy out.

He did take quite a bit off one side!

I did drive it the other day at highway speeds (60-70mph ) where it was real bad before and i was stunned that it was virtualy gone!

The shifter was hardly vibrating where before it was moving quite a bit.

Engine was balanced back in the day but for whatever reason wasnt done right i guess?

As said, check your clutch and flywheel...you might be surprised!

'69 camaro, was orig SS 396 car.
original tranny & 12 bolt

Now:
568 ci, Merlin Pro block
Callies crank, Oliver rods
AFR CNC 325, Nash 5 speed, 9'' Ford 35 spline locker
F1 Procharger that will get on soon...
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post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old Oct 16th, 14, 09:34 PM
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Re: Centerforce clutch/pressure plate vibration question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 merlinpro565 View Post
I had a bad vibration in my car since the engine,..my "Billet" flywheel was wayyyy out.
Yep,..9 of 10 "engine vibration" problems are due to an unbalanced flywheel and/or pressure plate.

And as was stated earlier, just because these parts are brand new doesn't mean they're balanced.
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