68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 14th, 11, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
Dale
 
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Question 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

I have a couple of street rods now and recently purchased a 68 Camaro B/B for my son at the Turkey Run in Daytona last November. The car was in excellent shape and had everything we were looking for including the B/B. The motor is a 84 model 454 (.060 over) to 468, has a mild comp cam, stock heads, alum. manifold with a 750 holly. The owner produced some paper work indicating that the short block ad been built about a year ago and seem to have the right stuff. We took it for a short ride and it appeared to run very good so we bought it and trailer'd it home. The 1st time out it got up to ~240 and had a boil over! We then proceeded to make our list of things we wanted to do and began ordering parts. Below is a list of things we have dove thus far:
Pulled the alum. radiator and brought it to the radiator shop - was told rad. was new and in excellent shape so we reinstalled it
Contacted Griffin and had them build an alum shroud with their 2 high flow fans. also purchased their wiring harness and relays since the car had A/C. Used 160 deg. temp. sensor to kick on the fans. Installed it in the manifold and relocated the mechanical temp. gauge to the passenger side head. Also installed new alum. overflow tank and radiator cap.
Installed new 180 deg thermostat and replaced the rad. hoses - water pup appeared to be new
Replaced ignition system with a new MSD system including distributor, coil and electronic box - set timing at 12 deg.
Installed new Doug's full tube ceramic headers
Installed new gas tank, s/s braided fuel line, Holly (blue pump), canister fuel filter and fuel regulator.
Besides this work we made several cosmetic changes and replaced rims/tires.

Once we installed everything and tuned the car we experienced high temperatures ~225 . I used an electronic temp gun on the heads and found it to be ~200/205. The intake manifold at the hose connection was ~ 195/200.... top of the radiator under the cap was ~185....bottom of the radiator was ~135/140 (elect fans kicked on at 160 deg). The next step we tried was the restrictor washers starting with the medium size and working up to the large one. Yesterday it ran in my shop for ~40 minutes idling and got up to ~ 205 on the temp gauge in the car... my electronic temp. gun was reading ~ 190 on the heads. I took it for a test drive and it climbed to ~210/215 on the gauge at 45 mph. after getting on the interstate it climbed to ~230 @ 70 mph. I turned around and headed home...by the time I got back to the shop it was up to 240 on the gauge. I checked it again with the temp. gun and it was reading 210/215 on the heads..... top of rad. was reading ~195 and bottom was @ 160 deg.

Currently planning to change the temp gauge in the car for more accuracy. Also have a new Wieland high flow water pump that I am thinking on changing.

Any ideas and/or help is greatly appreciated!

One of my buddies mentioned that if this doesn't work than I should consider pulling the heads and making sure that whomever built the engine used the right head gaskets (not sure about this one) Are all B/B heads interchangeable?
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 14th, 11, 09:04 AM
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

I would first pull the pump, pop the rear cover off and check the impeller.
Chances are it's either deteriorated, does not fit the housing correctly or is just not sufficient to circulate enough water at speed to keep engine cooled.

There should be plenty of air flowing through the rad to allow good exchange at speed - so I doubt the fans or shroud is effecting the heat rise that much.
In a side note - when I added a front spoiler to one car years ago, the at speed temps. dropped almost 10deg ...

No, all BBC heads are not compatable with all the blocks
But, since you've given the date for the engine as a '84 then it should be a Mark IV ( or Mark 4) block.
You can pull a valve cover, record and post the head casting number and we can confirm.
But, I would suspect just a head gasket issue before a head miss-match issue in most cases.
And ... if you did have a head miss-match - I would expect large amounts of water/coolant in the crankcase something I'd think you's notice pretty quickly ...

A good radiator shop could also do a check for combustion gasses in the coolant - to be sure the head gaskets are sealing well.

Hope this helps

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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 14th, 11, 09:08 AM
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

Nothing wrong with old school stuff, many times it works , better.

I would first check to see that you do have the curved bypass hose from intake to water pump.

I would also like to see that temp gauge mounted in the intake. I know the heads are the hottest place to take a temp readings and this can drive some people nuts.
I would get a good mechanical gauge for this. Autometer or SW.

You did not mention radiator size or tube and size. I don't like electric fans (new school), but many people run them. I use a factory sized 23" wide two row aluminum with the stock shroud and fan blade/clutch.

If you still have cooling issues, Yes, look at the heads. Your Wiend pump is probably good, as its probably made like my Stewart pump.
Oh, something John said about the water pump impeller, check to see if the impeller appears to have a back to it, correct wording is "closed impeller. Most of the high dollar pumps are made this way and they stop water cavation . Best understanding of this is the fishing boat guys that have hydrofoil plate , covering their outboard motor props.
Long ago I made one and installed it on an open impeller pump, made world of differance. Cost $6 vs. $100 for a so called hi flow pump.

Oh , one other thing, check to see what crank/ pump pullies you may have , sometimes you can mismatch them, thus causing the water pump to crank drive ratio off. Good luck.

You did not mention if you know for sure, if the water pump is rotating the right way? Not serpentine set up?

Don
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 14th, 11, 09:34 AM
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Red face Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

Oops

Along with the good points above ...
Check to make sure there is a 'spring' (coiled wire reinforcement) inside the Lower collant hose from Rad. to Pump.
Lack of a 'spring' will sometimes allow the hose to collapse under high RPM pump suction and restrict flow to the system

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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 14th, 11, 03:20 PM
 
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

You either have a water pump issue or your aluminum radiator is not up to the task of cooling your big block, especially if it's one of the Chinese Silla radiators. You need at least 2-rows if 1.0" tubes to keep your big block cool. Can you post a picture of the radiator here and maybe a picture inside the cap?
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 14th, 11, 06:10 PM
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

I would also double check your timing. Does it have the correct timing tab on the motor. You said you set it a 12 degrees, what is your total.

I had a buddy fight the same thing on his 57 chevy. He did all the things mentioned, aluminum radiator, pump, hoses, thermostat. His timing was retarded and that was why it ran hot.

You might want to check top dead center on you harmonic balancer compared to your timing tab.

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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 14th, 11, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

Thanks for the reply.... I am new to this site and need a little help on attaching pictures to a reply....
Thanks,
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 14th, 11, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

Quote:
Originally Posted by OleSchoolRodder View Post
Thanks for the reply.... I am new to this site and need a little help on attaching pictures to a reply....
Thanks,
OK, I am trying to upload my file to this site....hope it works and you can view the pictures....
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 14th, 11, 10:32 PM
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

Wow! Everybody is missing the obvious here.

Does the car have a vacuum advance distributor? If not I'll bet that is the culprit. Non vacuum advance type distributors work fine at the track where it's all in by 3K rpm and you don't have to have part throttle idle and sit in traffic. On the street it's another matter as the lack of vacuum advance will cause the engine to run retarded (timing wise) which will cause it to run hot at idle and in slow traffic.

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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 14th, 11, 11:02 PM
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWindows View Post
Wow! Everybody is missing the obvious here.
Ha! I thought you were going to say that the thermostat is missing...


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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 15th, 11, 07:02 AM
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

[QUOTE=PowerWindows;1553158]Wow! Everybody is missing the obvious here.

I think he said it was running fine at idle only at highway speed did it overheat. I'm not sayin I'm just sayin

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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 15th, 11, 08:13 AM
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdld17 View Post
You did not mention if you know for sure, if the water pump is rotating the right way? Not serpentine set up?
If you know the brand/model of the water pump, you can go to summit and find out the rotation...

Matt

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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 15th, 11, 10:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

OK, here is the update from the recent changes I made after my original post......
Installed the new Wieland high flow water pump along with a new high flow 180 deg. thermostat. Changed out the old mechanical temp. gauge and replaced it with a new Auto Meter mechanical one. Car ran 200 deg. at idle for ~ 40 minutes...... While on test drive it ran 205 deg. @ 45 mph....... once on the interstate it climbed to 230 @ 70 mph.
After cool down I removed the mechanical temp sensor from the head and installed a plug in the head. I then removed the 90 deg. heater hose connection from the intake manifold and installed the mechanical temp. sensor for the gauge into the intake. Afterwards I remove and plugged the heater hose from the water pump. My elect. fans sensor is located in the intake where the temp. gauge sensor would normally be.
After reinstalling all of the coolant I let it run for ~30 minutes at idle and it ran ~190 deg. (electric fans kicked on @ ~160 deg.) ....... While on the test drive it ran ~ 200 @ 45 mph...... Again on the interstate it got up to ~ 225 deg. @ 70 mph..... As I returned home the temp. gauge indicated that the temp. was coming down... by the time I returned home it was down to ~ 192 deg......All of these readings were taken from the new temp. gauge I installed... However, when I used my electronic temp. gun I recorded the following readings:
- 150 deg. = top of intake @ rad. hose goose neck
- 163 deg. = top of intake manifold
- 160 deg. = intake manifold @ fan thermostat
- 192 deg. = front of left head
- 193 deg. = front of right head
- 176 deg. = top radiator hose (S/S)
- 161 deg. = bottom radiator hose @ pump
- 106 deg. = bottom of radiator @ lower hose connection
- 96 deg. = top of radiator under cap outside edge (could be trapped air here)
- 156 deg. = top of radiator inside edge next to cap
- 130 deg. = top of radiator @ hose outside edge
- 75 deg. = bottom of radiator @ hose outside edge.
Tomorrow I plan to make further adjustments to the timing to see what differences that will make (If any) ..... Furthermore it should be noted that tonight's test drive was done after dark while the outside temp. was ~ 25 deg. cooler than previous readings....tomorrows testing will be done in the afternoon when it is warmer (~ 75 deg.)

Many thanks to all for the great replies and good advice...... please keep them coming!!!!
Hopefully, my using the "Quick Reply" to one note allows everyone to see my post... still new to the site and learning.....
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 15th, 11, 11:43 PM
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

looks we coverd all the basis on this one --and some very good responses--if its not timing -i would suspect lower radiator hose colapsing or head gasket on wrong
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 16th, 11, 03:55 AM
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Re: 68 Camaro 468 B/B running hot

One thing you have to consider is the size of the engine, BBC, and overbored as well.
Higher rpm's, more heat generated, as you've seen.
Forty MPH, 200, seventy MPH, 225.
My concern is the present fan set-up verses OE fan set-up. You have this large rad core (area) compared to the present fan hole(s) in the shroud - is the fan hole(s) smaller than the core area? All the air has to pass through the fan hole(s) compared to an OE set-up of a shroud over the rad core and a 7-blade fan on a fan clutch - larger exhaust hole.

If these elec fan hole(s) are smaller and the fans are on, come on at 160, then at 70 MPH, the fans on and small hole(s) could become a restriction for air flow. The engine compartment is a low pressure area at speed, so the natural flow of air at speed should help.

You might mount your camera to view the bottom rad hose to see if it collapses.

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