Question About Motor Heating Up - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old May 24th, 11, 05:13 AM Thread Starter
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Question About Motor Heating Up

I have a question on something I encountered while driving my 69 back from Ocean City this past weekend. I have a 160 thermostat in it, with a stock fan and shroud and can cruise around all day in traffic with no probem. I'm cruising down the highway at about 60 (3200 RPM with 4.10 gears ) and running at 160 degrees. When I start to go up an incline or give it a little more gas, the temperature started to creep up, but only a little -- to about 165 - 170. When I got to a light, the temp went back down under 160.

I noticed that as I move from 3200 to 3300 or 3400 RPM the temp starts to creep up a little, so I kept it around 3000-3100 and the temp stayed about 165 - 170. As I'm crossing the Bay Bridge and had to give it gas to go up the incline, the temp started rising agin and got all the way to 180. Once I crossed the bridge, I kept the motor around 3100 RPM and the temp went back down to 170.

I cruised home with no problem, but I had never seen the car behave like that regarding temperature. I figured I would run my situation by the group to see if anyone has any ideas. Could it be the converter (3000 stall)? Water pump? Water pump pulley? Just grasping at straws at this point and hopefully not overlooking anything obvious.

==Doug
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old May 24th, 11, 06:43 AM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

From what you described, I really dont see any problems here, especially with 4:10 gears cruising on the highway... If the temp went up to over 230, then would be concerned.

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old May 24th, 11, 07:09 AM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

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Originally Posted by DougP View Post
I have a question on something I encountered while driving my 69 back from Ocean City this past weekend. I have a 160 thermostat in it, with a stock fan and shroud and can cruise around all day in traffic with no probem. I'm cruising down the highway at about 60 (3200 RPM with 4.10 gears ) and running at 160 degrees. When I start to go up an incline or give it a little more gas, the temperature started to creep up, but only a little -- to about 165 - 170. When I got to a light, the temp went back down under 160.

I noticed that as I move from 3200 to 3300 or 3400 RPM the temp starts to creep up a little, so I kept it around 3000-3100 and the temp stayed about 165 - 170. As I'm crossing the Bay Bridge and had to give it gas to go up the incline, the temp started rising agin and got all the way to 180. Once I crossed the bridge, I kept the motor around 3100 RPM and the temp went back down to 170.

I cruised home with no problem, but I had never seen the car behave like that regarding temperature. I figured I would run my situation by the group to see if anyone has any ideas. Could it be the converter (3000 stall)? Water pump? Water pump pulley? Just grasping at straws at this point and hopefully not overlooking anything obvious.
It is perfectly normal for the temperature of the engine to go up as you go up an incline. You are making more power while the water flow and air flow remain essentially the same. As the temperature increases in the radiator, the rate of heat exchange increases and at some point a new balance is achieved.

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old May 24th, 11, 02:41 PM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

I assume you are saying it never used to do this before and its just starting to....

Several things
1/ Why are u running a 160 and not a 180?
2/The cooling system on a 1st gen is so efficent even on a real hot day towing a vinage car behind, over the Auckland Harbour bridge..which always has heavy traffic...just under 170 is max on a 160 thermosat.
3/The temps u have are of no concern
4/ Considering 2/ I understand you feeeling something is not quite right, not bad but a possible of issues further down the line.

Check the bottom hose, the internal spring has not corrided away.
Get a hydrocarbon check on the radiator
Check the thermostat in a jug of water..it is opening all the way and temp correct....but change it to a GM 180 anyway...and check that before putting in
Pull the bottom stop **** bung, and use a bit of mig wire ans start hooking any crap out....if there is a lot of crap , including bits od bottom hose spring....indicates the radiator is getting duew for full back flush and maybe headers removed and cores manually unblocked.
Start with the easy stuff 1st...

The 1st gen radiator cooling system is so damn efficeint, stuff like timing, vac leaks , mixtures have stuff all if any effect on water temps.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old May 24th, 11, 07:38 PM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

Sounds fine. The temperature rating is where it just starts to open, not the wide open point. It'll maintain the temperature at low load with low flow but won't go fully open until maybe 10-20 degrees over the rated temp so you'll get some overshoot when you load it up. Also if you've replaced the lower radiator hose recently, none of the parts stores seem to carry a preformed one with an anti-collapse spring that eliminates the possibility of it getting sucked closed at high engine speeds. You may have to get a universal flex hose to get one with a spring in it or go through a restoration supplier.

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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old May 25th, 11, 06:55 PM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

Quote:
The temperature rating is where it just starts to open, not the wide open point.
The thermostat is fully open at its rated temp....
The rated temp is the fully intended target of the running temp of the engine
If it was not open fully at this temp, this would result in higher running temps than intended.

A thermostat is not just rated, it also has flow and rate of opening specs..Hence why run a GM 180 deg NOT any old 180 degree off the shelf.....If it say doesnt open far enough, say designed for a little 3 cylinder suzuki, the engine will run hot.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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Last edited by Steptoe; May 25th, 11 at 07:08 PM.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old May 25th, 11, 10:49 PM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
The thermostat is fully open at its rated temp....
The rated temp is the fully intended target of the running temp of the engine
If it was not open fully at this temp, this would result in higher running temps than intended.

A thermostat is not just rated, it also has flow and rate of opening specs..Hence why run a GM 180 deg NOT any old 180 degree off the shelf.....If it say doesnt open far enough, say designed for a little 3 cylinder suzuki, the engine will run hot.

Nope. It's a wax and copper pellet. Rated temperature is the temp at which the wax begins to melt and the thermostat begins to open, not the temperature at which it is fully open. Wax does not instantaneously go from solid to liquid. It does not need to be fully open to flow and does not need to be fully open to cool a car at light load. It will not fully open until about 15-20 degrees higher than the rated temperature. Put a scanner on any GM car in the last fifteen years or so and you'll see that they run at about 210 degrees with a 195 degree thermostat. Or better yet get out your Mr. Steptoe Junior Science kit, heat up a pot of water to 180 degrees, and pop your thermostat in it. As you yourself have stated many times, our cooling systems are overengineered. That's why they can maintain 180 degrees with a partially open thermostat. I accidentally put a thermostat for a 180 degree t-stat for a blocked bypass system in mine once (they flow some without opening) and it would not even hit 180 after ten miles of driving.

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TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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Last edited by Steiner; May 25th, 11 at 11:09 PM.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old May 26th, 11, 04:04 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

Guys - I appreciate the information and discussion on the topic. I didn't think I had a problem, but since I have never seen that behavior before, I just wanted to be proactive in case there was a potential overheating problem.

So if I interpret the responses correctly, a 180 therostat would be better? The reason I used a 160 is that at one point I had an aluminum radiator with an electric fan and no shroud -- the car would sometime start to overheat in traffic. Once I replaced that setup with a stock radiator and fan shroud I have no issues with any overheating, however, I left the 160 thermostat in it. If I decide to go to a 180 thermostat, is there really that big of a difference between a GM and aftermarket one? Also, is there anything else I should consider changing. I also want to make sure that I provide enough cooling to the trans as I am told my 3000 stall converter generates a lot of heat.

No complaints here as the car is running great, however, like I said, I am just being a little proactive and am calling on the collective brain trust of the membership. Thanks for all your responses.

==Doug
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old May 26th, 11, 07:10 AM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

I bet the 180 keeps things more consistent for you. I run the 180 and only see temps climb when Im in mountains of Wyoming or Montana on vacation.

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old May 26th, 11, 03:22 PM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

Quote:
Or better yet get out your Mr. Steptoe Junior Science kit, heat up a pot of water to 180 degrees, and pop your thermostat in it. As you yourself have stated many times,
Well it is very apparent then that you have never done it or checked a thermostat in a jug with a thermometer.....maybe throw away your therory books and live in the real world for a few decades....may improve your sacasum at the same time.
Or pick a a manufactures full spec s which will give u , as I stated above, how far open (or closed) it is at a given temp the cross section of the opening at different points and/ the rated flow at a given pressure.

Quote:
If I decide to go to a 180 thermostat, is there really that big of a difference between a GM and aftermarket one?
Yeah ..there can be....like I mentioned above a 350 Ci is very different to say a 900cc 3 cylinder suzuki....u can take pot luck off the retail shelf or read the label.
The idea of a thermostat is to heat the engine AND the oil up very quickly to full operating temp....running out of operating temps , oils are running at full efficience, engine tolerances are optimum, burns temps , close, spark plugs at the right heats...

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old May 26th, 11, 08:21 PM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
Well it is very apparent then that you have never done it or checked a thermostat in a jug with a thermometer.....maybe throw away your therory books and live in the real world for a few decades....may improve your sacasum at the same time.
Or pick a a manufactures full spec s which will give u , as I stated above, how far open (or closed) it is at a given temp the cross section of the opening at different points and/ the rated flow at a given pressure.

Why don't you post up your flow charts for me. Contrary to what you might believe, you're not the only person in the world to ever work on a car. I've been doing it since I was old enough to balance on a fender because my dad wouldn't pay anyone to fix something he could (neither will I) and the kid had smaller hands than the old man.


Here you go. Testing a brand new GM 195 degree thermostat with a thermometer and showing it just crack open at rated temperature and five degrees over, not open all the way. And following that, a video that shows what a thermostat looks like during the opening cycle from cracking open at rated temp to what fully open looks like. And yes, I've done it myself not the old "drop it in a pot of boiling water" because any one on the market will open wide up at 212 degrees. Maybe they did rate them at fully open temp forty years ago but they don't now.




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Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old May 26th, 11, 10:23 PM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

Very sweet....here we are talking about old tecnology cars and you bring in new technoly requirements with ECU monitored engines...like timing and damn near everything else, you will also know because u sat on you dads fender...these items are a completly different kettle of fish...
There is not a GM 195 thermostat for pre 74 techonlogy
Quote:
you're not the only person in the world to ever work on a car. I've been doing it since I was old enough to balance on a fender because my dad
Sry my Dad died before could sit on the fender of his car....thu 40 yrs of building, not just amercan GM stuff, lot british, Aussie, including vintage technoloy going back to 1912far wider than most, and of coarse there is the workshop Im down there most days for the last 30 yrs.....

Im outta here this is going nowhere got better thing to do

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old May 26th, 11, 11:57 PM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

*sigh* Yeah, I'll leave too. Nevermind that a 180 degree thermostat made for a '69 Camaro uses the exact same design as the one in the video.

I'll leave everyone to ponder a quick statement and a question: A thermostat is not an on off switch. The nature of the design with wax and spring means that the consistency of the wax will change with temperature and the thermostat acts like a flow control valve. This results in the thermostat opening more and more as temperature increases until the wax is fully melted and the spring is able to push the valve open all the way. Now..... Is the temperature rating of a thermostat used to regulate the maximum normal operating temperature of an engine or the minimum normal operating temperature?

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old May 27th, 11, 03:55 AM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up



The Fulvia thermostat is of the wax pellet type. The wax melts at 83C. Because the wax expands quickly and strongly when it changes phase from solid to liquid, it opens quickly between 83 and 93. Between 70 and 83 it opens slowly due to thermal expansion of the solid wax. Over 93 it continues to open the last bit due to thermal expansion of the liquid wax. The thermostat has an hysteresis of about 2 to 3 degrees, which means the temperature has to drop 2 to 3 degrees before the thermostat starts to close. If the thermostat ever overheats, it is advisable to replace it as it may be internally damaged.

http://www.viva-lancia.com/fulvia/qa...thermostat.php

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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old May 27th, 11, 04:15 AM
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Re: Question About Motor Heating Up

Check your Owner's Manual, Thermostat should be a 195F. I couldn't believe it either until I checked, lost my own bet.
Motors Manual, 1969, 1974, states the same.
Temperature stamped on the t/stat is the opening temp.
Thermostat will continue to open further and be fully open in the next 20F, generally.

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