Radiator overheating-new radiator questions - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
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Kraig
 
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Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

Good afternoon everyone. The problem is on my 69. Originally it had a 307SB with the powerglide and 273 rear gears with open differential. Now i'm running just short of 400Hp in a 350SB, a beefed up powerglide, and 373 rear gears with an eaton posi. I never thought of this before I did all the changes, but here in Texas for the next few years with the HOT temperatures out side, 60mph running 3,000 RPM, along with the transmission running 3,000 RPM and all being cooled by the stock radiator/internal trans cooler.....it just can't seem to keep up. When I changed the engine, I thought I had enough foresight and put in a high flow water pump and a 160F thermostat..but that didn't do anything.
So now the question is......Since I am looking for a new more powerful radiator....should I buy one with a integrated trans cooler or should I run with a seperate trans cooler. Also if I run with an integrated trans cooler, should I use a radiator that is rated for my 400HP or should i jump it up to the next HP rating since it will also be cooling a fangs out transmission at high RPM along with the HOT daily temps of over 100F? IF the radiator is rated for 400HP can it keep up with a 400HP engine at 3,000RPM, the transmission running 3,000RPM and the 100F++ temperatures outside?

Thanks for your help.
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 10:42 AM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

Can you define what you mean by "over heating"? How hot is it getting? When does it get hot, idle? hwy speed? Does the radiator just spew a bit of coolant when you park?

...Dennis

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

I have the original water gauge but it is brand new so I now it works...but it doesn't have numbers on the guage so not sure exactly. I have used an infrared temp sensor to test it all. I'm not sure exactly how hot the "water" is, but it is boiling and all the metal is well into 200F+ The temp is also transfering up through my aluminum manifold and causing the fuel in my carb to boil when in town and at idle. The manifold is getting even hotter than the rest just from heat soak. If I jump right onto the interstate when the car is cool, the temp gauge stays just out of the red, but as soon as I come to a stop light, it pegs out red, and the car starts to overheat. Once it gets here, the temp won't come back down. I know it's not timing, I've gotten jet hot coating on the headers, which helped out HUGE amounts with underhood heat, but not quite enough. I also am running a shroud on the radiator, the front spoiler, and shrouding behind the head lights and lower areas to force air through the radiator.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 11:05 AM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

Kraig what fan, timing, Vacuum advance can, jetting, and rotation of the HF water pump. Is it pucking coolant out of the radiator and is it pinging when its hot. Can you pull a couple of spark plugs maybe take some pics and upload them...

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 11:14 AM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

I would install a 4 core radiator with the stock clutch fan set-up (#772 fan).

1969 X66 396 LeMans Blue, M20, 373 (Sold)
1969 Convertible LS3 TKO 600, 373
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 12:41 PM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

If the overheating began immediately after installing the new engine, I suggest" burping" the radiator to get any air pockets that might be in the engine. Ideally you want to park on a steep driveway with the car pointing up the driveway. Jack the front of the car as high as possible. Remove the radiator cap and start the engine. This process will cause the trapped air to find high ground and eventually escape through the top of the open radiator. You will hear the trapped air bubble and burp out the radiator filler spout if this is the problem. Otherwise back to square one. I had to do this on my '68 Camaro when reinstalling the 350 V8 engine. It did the same thing until I burped it.

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 01:42 PM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by klow View Post
I have the original water gauge but it is brand new so I now it works...but it doesn't have numbers on the guage so not sure exactly. I have used an infrared temp sensor to test it all. I'm not sure exactly how hot the "water" is, but it is boiling and all the metal is well into 200F+ The temp is also transfering up through my aluminum manifold and causing the fuel in my carb to boil when in town and at idle. The manifold is getting even hotter than the rest just from heat soak. If I jump right onto the interstate when the car is cool, the temp gauge stays just out of the red, but as soon as I come to a stop light, it pegs out red, and the car starts to overheat. Once it gets here, the temp won't come back down. I know it's not timing, I've gotten jet hot coating on the headers, which helped out HUGE amounts with underhood heat, but not quite enough. I also am running a shroud on the radiator, the front spoiler, and shrouding behind the head lights and lower areas to force air through the radiator.
The factory gauge in my '69 is tested at 180 the first 1/4 mark and 210 straight up (half way). The reproduction I have seen don't seem to align with the factory from my experiences. At sea level water boils at 212 degs. Water under pressure raises the boiling point. A 15lb radiator cap will raise the boiling point to somewhere around 250 degrees. If the water in your cooling system is getting to 250 when driving down the road I doubt your radiator core is the problem if your old engine didn't run hot too.

What is your timing set at? What radiator cap do you have? Are you positive you don't have a reverse flow water pump? Are you positive the engine is not running lean? Are you sure there is not a problem with the trans that is transfering heat to the engine?

In theory your new engine will create more heat than the old because it makes more power but keeping the temp under control in a 400hp SBC shouldn't be any different than keeping a 200hp 307 under control. You can spend a lot of money on new parts and may or may not tame the beast. Your existing radiator should be able to contain the new engine to anywhere from 180-210 so look at the tune and all the basics and you'll get the temps under control.

...Dennis

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 03:19 PM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

I would lose the integrated trans cooler and put a large dedicated cooler in it's place. Your trans will run a lot cooler and you'll take a lot of heat out of the engine radiator. This would be a good place to start.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 03:33 PM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

Some have eluded to timing. This article is a good start to help an engine run cool. Cooler means more efficient too.

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

My timing is set at 16* initial with 20* centrifugal, and 20* full time vacuum all in by 2800 RPM.
At idle with full time vacuum its running 36* BTDC, WOT also 36*, and cruising above 2800 RPM running 56*BTDC. I've messed with the timing a TON and I'm sure that it is not the problem. Spark plugs are good set at .040 I'm running HEI with a super coil. I'm running a brand new 15lb radiator cap and I've burped the system so I know thats not it.
The water pump is rotating the right way. I had checked that before by pulling the top hose off the radiator while my wife was continuously pouring water in the other end. The water is pumping the water the right way.
***Here's the thing. All the engine stuff is good, parts are good and working properly. The radiator cooled the old engine fine, BUT I the rear end and engine at the same time. With the 373 gears vs the 273 gears, I'm not only running the engine at 3,000 all the time, but the two speed powerglide is also wound up really fast. Thats what I'm thinking. I have 2 extra quarts of trans fluid with a larger pan thinking that would help with the heat, I just don't think it's enough. I don't think anything is wrong.....just that the radiator can't keep up with +100F weather, a high RPM engine and high running trans speeds.
I haven't had the radiator roded out but it looks pretty good. I just am wondering if a 3 or 4 core radiator with an integrated trans cooler can keep the temps down or should i go with a seperate trans cooler. If I do get the combined radiator/trans cooler, how much bigger should i go to ensure I never have a problem...EVER
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 04:24 PM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

That 2 core radiator has to go. What fan set up do you have? You should be running a Hayden HD fan clutch, a 772 fan with a shroud sealed at it's perimeter, half in and out of the shroud There is no reason a stock cooling system set up properly will not cool your engine efficiently. There are a few threads that have covered this extensively as it is a common issue, almost weekly.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 04:58 PM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by klow View Post
My timing is set at 16* initial with 20* centrifugal, and 20* full time vacuum all in by 2800 RPM.
At idle with full time vacuum its running 36* BTDC, WOT also 36*, and cruising above 2800 RPM running 56*BTDC. I've messed with the timing a TON and I'm sure that it is not the problem. Spark plugs are good set at .040 I'm running HEI with a super coil. I'm running a brand new 15lb radiator cap and I've burped the system so I know thats not it.
The water pump is rotating the right way. I had checked that before by pulling the top hose off the radiator while my wife was continuously pouring water in the other end. The water is pumping the water the right way.
***Here's the thing. All the engine stuff is good, parts are good and working properly. The radiator cooled the old engine fine, BUT I the rear end and engine at the same time. With the 373 gears vs the 273 gears, I'm not only running the engine at 3,000 all the time, but the two speed powerglide is also wound up really fast. Thats what I'm thinking. I have 2 extra quarts of trans fluid with a larger pan thinking that would help with the heat, I just don't think it's enough. I don't think anything is wrong.....just that the radiator can't keep up with +100F weather, a high RPM engine and high running trans speeds.
I haven't had the radiator roded out but it looks pretty good. I just am wondering if a 3 or 4 core radiator with an integrated trans cooler can keep the temps down or should i go with a seperate trans cooler. If I do get the combined radiator/trans cooler, how much bigger should i go to ensure I never have a problem...EVER
4 core radiator all the way.

1969 X66 396 LeMans Blue, M20, 373 (Sold)
1969 Convertible LS3 TKO 600, 373
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 05:12 PM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

Kraig going with a radiator that is much wider than the opening of the radiator support is not going to help much. Besides, if you are using the factory radiator mounting system you're going to get crushed financially when you try to buy a replacement.
What I did is loose the well-nut system. Then build a support tray. To get an idea how that's done refer to GM 1970's cars. The method is great to lower or remove the radiator too. I used the stock style factory transmission cooling tubes to the radiator cooler. I wouldn't do it again. Not because it makes everything hotter, lots of stuff dumps heat in front of the radiator these days like inter-coolers, AC condensers, power steering coolers and of course the trany cooler. The reason for separating the two is service simplicity. You don't mess with those lines and leak ATF all over.
How thick is your core? You'll need 2.5 inches or thicker. Don't even think of a thiner one. And of course use the factory style thermal fan clutch with six or seven blades.
Also make sure your water pump pulley is the small diameter so the pump spins faster. Wanna see some pictures?

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 06:48 PM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by klow View Post
If I do get the combined radiator/trans cooler, how much bigger should i go to ensure I never have a problem...EVER
For reference, I have an Alumitech 68 AC radiator in my 69 with stock clutch fan and shroud, and the tranmission cooling lines into the radiator - it never gets over 190 even idling in upper 90's weather (we don't get tripple digits in Iowa) Engine is a 450 hp (on the dyno) 408 SBC. I don't think you would ever need anything better than this set up for cooling your engine if it's tuned right.

BTW, the holes are already there in your core support for the wider AC radiator - it will bolt right in.

Adding a trans cooler still puts heat into the radiator because it's in front of it and dumping hot air on it in addition to reducing flow across it. I have a hard time seeing how that would drop coolant temps, if anything it would seem to raise it?

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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 11, 07:02 PM
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Re: Radiator overheating-new radiator questions

Similar recipe to Steve's^^^^

383, Summit Direct Fit aluminum radiator, stock shroud, pulleys, clutch and 7 blade fan. I run the trans lines through the radiator cooler, then to an aux cooler.

On the hottest days around here it barely climbs above 180 with a 180 thermostat.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SU...e%7c5.7L%2f350


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