Radiator - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 28th, 19, 10:39 AM Thread Starter
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Radiator

Looking for info on the cooling ability of a small block radiator or a big block radiator. Was wondering which one would cool my sbc better. And if it's a big block what would I need to get besides the bb shroud.

1969, X-11
383 5 speed, 373 rear
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 28th, 19, 10:56 AM
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Re: Radiator

The big block shroud is made taking into account the bbc is installed slight to the passenger side of the engine bay.

67-68 bbc got a 23 radiator and 69 SBC and bbc got 21. If 69 had ac it got an extra core.

So if you go 69 BBC radiator and BBC shroud installed will put the shroud fan opening of center of the SBC water pump, pulley and fan.

If you use a SBC shroud it will not cover the entire radiator.

You might be able to install the radiator a little to the drivers side so the fan will be in line with the shroud opening.

I would probably use a 21 HD radiator and SBC shroud.

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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 28th, 19, 11:21 AM
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Re: Radiator

I am using a BB shroud with a SB still using the BB frame stands
I am not political correct or period correct
what ever works for me , makes me happy
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 28th, 19, 11:58 AM
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Re: Radiator

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Originally Posted by Vega$69 View Post
67-68 bbc got a 23 radiator .
???, FWIW my radiator measures 23" between inside of end tanks. 67 327 car. Bought the car with this radiator in it.


If it is a BB radiator in a SB car that may explain why I have these "ears" (apparently not stock) that come out from the fan shroud to go into the hold down clips on the end tanks. My fan shroud comes to the edge of radiator on PS but DS the radiator (fin part) is wider by about 1 1/2" before end tank. I use a SBC "5 blade" fan

So if in fact the 23" radiator is for BB I have it on a small block application using a 17 1/8" fan w/fan clutch and a SBC fan shroud held on top with the one center bolt and on lower sides by the added "ears". I assume the P.O. made the "ears" to hold the SBC fan shroud

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...so if I have a BB radiator it can work using a SBC fan shroud
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 28th, 19, 01:06 PM
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Re: Radiator

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Originally Posted by SoCal805 View Post
...so if I have a BB radiator it can work using a SBC fan shroud

Yes if you are willing to do some fabricating to make it fit. It isn't a drop in bolt it up install.

As John pointed out the BBC has the motor moved to the passenger side five eighths of an inch and raised about a half inch on the drivers side to clear the steering gear box resulting in the carburetor stud sitting an inch to the passenger side. This means that the radiator opening is bias to the passenger side, as is the fan shroud.

A fan shroud out of a BBC full size car will be centered (or any big block GM full size car as far as that goes) but they do not bolt on to the radiator but to the radiator core support (so once again more fabricating).

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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old Feb 28th, 19, 02:48 PM
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Re: Radiator

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Yes if you are willing to do some fabricating to make it fit. It isn't a drop in bolt it up install.

As John pointed out the BBC has the motor moved to the passenger side five eighths of an inch and raised about a half inch on the drivers side to clear the steering gear box resulting in the carburetor stud sitting an inch to the passenger side. This means that the radiator opening is bias to the passenger side, as is the fan shroud.

A fan shroud out of a BBC full size car will be centered (or any big block GM full size car as far as that goes) but they do not bolt on to the radiator but to the radiator core support (so once again more fabricating).

Big Dave
IDK if my radiator is for a BB or a HD for AC??. Car does not have AC, IDK if it ever did.

My 23" radiator bolts to the core support in what appear to be "stock" holes. I do see another set of holes about 2+" inboard on DS so I assume that is where the 21" would bolt to. I assume all Gen 1 core supports are the same with holes pre drilled to accommodate SB or BB radiators

My radiator has "clips" on the side tanks where the fan shroud would normally sit in on a 21" radiator. It would appear the correct fan shroud (BB) ears would go into these clips as they appear stock to the radiator...but you said the BB fan shroud bolts to core support. Given my fan shroud is a SBC I have metal "ears" that were made to secure to the ear of the shroud that extend 2" so they reach into the welded on clip of the side tank. Ironically I just noticed one ear came off so I just made another from some metal bar stock I had.

So if I do have a BB radiator, unless it is some HD one for AC cars, it bolted right in to core support and the SBC fan shroud fit with just adding 2 small metal ears to it. Still uses the top center bolt to hold it on top. My radiator is off center. It is 2" longer on DS from center
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 3rd, 19, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Radiator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larger Dave View Post
Yes if you are willing to do some fabricating to make it fit. It isn't a drop in bolt it up install.

As John pointed out the BBC has the motor moved to the passenger side five eighths of an inch and raised about a half inch on the drivers side to clear the steering gear box resulting in the carburetor stud sitting an inch to the passenger side. This means that the radiator opening is bias to the passenger side, as is the fan shroud.

A fan shroud out of a BBC full size car will be centered (or any big block GM full size car as far as that goes) but they do not bolt on to the radiator but to the radiator core support (so once again more fabricating).

Big Dave
Dave, are you sayin that if I get a Big block radiator and big block shroud that I would still have some fabricating to do? If so what else would I have to get besides a top radiator hose?

1969, X-11
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 3rd, 19, 12:28 PM
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Re: Radiator

Only time a hose is an issue is if you get a radiator with a Corvette lower outlet on the tank as it is at a ninety degree angle instead of straight. A lot of aftermarket "universal" radiators come with this feature for some reason.

Problem with a BBC shroud is the off set. It won't sit along the center line of the car creating clearance issues with the fan. Firebird with a 400 in it was centered (because only the Chevy has a BIG block engine, the other GM "big blocks" are the same size as the small block). Because the BBC was built to be a truck engine it is huge compared to the Chevy small block, and doesn't fit in a first gen Camaro or a Nova body without being offset. It is this off set that causes all of the problems. I don't know if a first gen Firebird radiator shroud uses the same mounting method as is used on a first gen Camaro. But it is designed to fit centered in the body and cover the larger 23 inch radiator core.

Unless you are building your BBC car the way the factory did it; using reproduction parts with the correct factory dimensions (most, but not all reproduction frame stands are deficient in meeting the proper dimensions) then there will be some fabricating or modifying to get other aftermarket parts to fit without interference.

Back when I was still running Camaros Hooker made all of their headers by hand and had a different part number for every combination you could think of. Those headers fitted without crimping the tubes (though you might have to cut a hole in an inner fender to run the tubes outside of the frame). Today the number of different headers offered is reduced to a fraction of their previous quantity; as they now build headers with robots to fit as many car bodies as they can; with as few products as they can get away with. The big title splash says it fits a BBC in a Camaro, but the foot notes tell you, if you read them, that the pair you bought probably won't fit your car as optioned.

Rather than going wider to obtain more cooling capacity consider going thicker. There are used radiators out of NASCAR race cars for sale that will cool over a thousand horsepower and are the same size only thicker than the radiator that shipped with a six or base V8.

NICE USED C&R NASCAR RADIATORS W/ OIL COOLERS ? Mooresville ? NC ? USA ? General 2nd Chance Race Parts

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 4th, 19, 09:52 AM
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Re: Radiator

Lee, If you want to use a 23'' big block radiator in a small block equipped car for a 1969 long water pump application, use the G.M. fan shroud from a 67-68 small block car with heavy duty cooling or AC. The shroud for that application is designed to fit a 23'' radiator in a centered small block application. I have done it, and I have one. It is G.M. part number 3893814. This will work and will look factory. Here you go.https://www.summitracing.com/parts/oer-3893814 I recommend G.M. if you can find one.
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1969 SS Garnet Red X55 350 Factory 4 speed
12 Bolt 3.55 Posi
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 4th, 19, 10:16 AM
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Re: Radiator

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Originally Posted by Matt 69 View Post
use the G.M. fan shroud from a 67-68 small block car with heavy duty cooling or AC. The shroud for that application is designed to fit a 23'' radiator in a centered small block application. I have done it, and I have one. It is G.M. part number 3893814. This will work and will look factory. Here you go.https://www.summitracing.com/parts/oer-3893814 I recommend G.M. if you can find one.
Matt

I know your response was for Lee but thanks for the part #. This would appear to be the correct one for my 327 67 with a 23" radiator


I have the 21" shroud which works with some modification (previous posts), this one looks to be the one I should have


FWIW I have the 5 blade (asymmetrical) fan and fan clutch

IDK but some people have told me "there was a dealer installed AC on this car".....The fire wall has 2 what look to be factory plugs near heater core that was supposedly used for AC. My crank pully is 3 groove with the middle one not being used

Its a Norwood car that was shipped to CA so IDK if 67 CA destined cars had smog pumps. It has PCV from rear of block into front of carb. Solid VC, front oil fill tube has breather cap
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 4th, 19, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Radiator

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Originally Posted by Matt 69 View Post
Lee, If you want to use a 23'' big block radiator in a small block equipped car for a 1969 long water pump application, use the G.M. fan shroud from a 67-68 small block car with heavy duty cooling or AC. The shroud for that application is designed to fit a 23'' radiator in a centered small block application. I have done it, and I have one. It is G.M. part number 3893814. This will work and will look factory. Here you go.https://www.summitracing.com/parts/oer-3893814 I recommend G.M. if you can find one.
Thanks Matt, just what I am looking for. But how does the fan sit, I have the long water pump?

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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 4th, 19, 12:50 PM
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Re: Radiator

BBC is two inches longer (all GM motors use the dimension from the back of the block where the bell housing bolts up to the flange on the front of the water pump for length) than a SBC. A BBC fits in a first gen with a five blade fan on a long water pump mounting a clutch for the fan blade. Difference between the BBC fan shroud and the SBC fan shroud (aside from the offset) is that a BBC fan shroud is two inches thinner (radiator to fan).

So Yes it will fit!

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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 4th, 19, 12:54 PM
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Re: Radiator

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Originally Posted by SoCal805 View Post
Matt

I know your response was for Lee but thanks for the part #. This would appear to be the correct one for my 327 67 with a 23" radiator


I have the 21" shroud which works with some modification (previous posts), this one looks to be the one I should have


FWIW I have the 5 blade (asymmetrical) fan and fan clutch

IDK but some people have told me "there was a dealer installed AC on this car".....The fire wall has 2 what look to be factory plugs near heater core that was supposedly used for AC. My crank pully is 3 groove with the middle one not being used

Its a Norwood car that was shipped to CA so IDK if 67 CA destined cars had smog pumps. It has PCV from rear of block into front of carb. Solid VC, front oil fill tube has breather cap
You're welcome sir!

1969 SS Garnet Red X55 350 Factory 4 speed
12 Bolt 3.55 Posi
461 BBC TKO600
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 4th, 19, 01:00 PM
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Re: Radiator

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Originally Posted by LeeC View Post
Thanks Matt, just what I am looking for. But how does the fan sit, I have the long water pump?
Lee there is no issue with how the fan sits. It is slightly further inside the shroud. I had the stock GM 7 blade fan and clutch assembly with that shroud in front of my 350 small block before I switched to a big block. Never ever had a cooling issue either in traffic or on the highway. FWIW, I am currently running a Griffin 23'' two row (1 1/4'' per row) aluminum radiator. It has no trouble keeping my big block cool. This same radiator was in front of the 350 as well. I upgraded long before the big block went in because I new it was coming.

1969 SS Garnet Red X55 350 Factory 4 speed
12 Bolt 3.55 Posi
461 BBC TKO600
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 4th, 19, 01:01 PM
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Wink Re: Radiator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larger Dave View Post
BBC is two inches longer (all GM motors use the dimension from the back of the block where the bell housing bolts up to the flange on the front of the water pump for length) than a SBC. A BBC fits in a first gen with a five blade fan on a long water pump mounting a clutch for the fan blade. Difference between the BBC fan shroud and the SBC fan shroud (aside from the offset) is that a BBC fan shroud is two inches thinner (radiator to fan).

So Yes it will fit!

Big Dave
What he said!

1969 SS Garnet Red X55 350 Factory 4 speed
12 Bolt 3.55 Posi
461 BBC TKO600
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