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Newbie has several questions

8K views 67 replies 18 participants last post by  Harris Roc Malouda 
#1 ·
Hi,


I´m Daniel from Germany, 38 years old and currently thinking to sell my 65 Mustang Fastback (which I restored over the last 5 years) and to buy a Camaro of the first generation.



In Germany we have big Mustang forum but I was suprised that i couldn´t find a Camaro forum so I hope you can help me as well (or even better :wink2:). And I hope I´m using the right section of the forum because I didn´t find a section like "general topics".


Here are my questions:


1. I`m prefering the 4-speed manual transmisson because in my Mustang I have 3-speed automatic (Ford C4) and my feeling is that this automatic eats a lot of power and even if I have a long rear axis the third gear is much to short for my taste (e.g. on the Autobahn). Any comments from your side regarding my prefered gearbox?


2. In terms of reliabilty, power delivery, value development: which motor would you prefer? 302 (Z/28) or 350?


3. How is the situation regarding spare parts? For my mustang it is pretty is to get spare parts, no matter if I look for them in Germany or the US.


4. How does the value development look like? Is it currently at a peak and actually not the best time to buy a Camaro or can I expect that the value increases?


5. In my Mustang it was a huge improvement to dam to inner side of the floor panels. Especially in terms of heat reduction. How is the situation with the Camaro? Is it also necessary?


6. What else are the must-do's every Camaro owner should do?


7. I found here in the forum the short buyer´s guide 8 minutes video but maybe you know another more detailed guide for camaro newbies? If not: what are the typical issues of a Camaro?


8. I think I prefer the 69 but are there besides the look any other arguments why I should buy a specific year?



Ok, that´s it for the first step :grin2:


Hope to hear from you and thanks in advance!

Daniel
 
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#2 ·
Just like 1st generation Mustangs, 1st gen Camaro parts are widely available from several reproduction distributors in the US

the 302 motor was specific to Z28 67-69 then 350 in the gen 2 Camaro. A real Z28 will typically be higher $ than a non Z28 in = condition

power loss between automatic & manual transmissions is not much difference, maybe 5% at most more with automatics

$ value....well depends on how well you buy the car so how much it will increase depends on what you pay for it originally. Resale value fluctuates but long term these cars have increased in value

Some prefer complete "original" aka "correct" Camaros while most just want them to look good and drive well so they make modifications be it paint color & interior or performance modifications (engine, overdrive transmissions in automatic or manual, suspension, wheels, exhaust, etc). Basically make the car what you want it to be IMHO.

I suspect a Camaro will cost more in Germany vs here in the but the selection would be considerably more here in US. Cars can be shipped.
 
#3 ·
Hi Daniel and welcome to this forum, :smile2:

I’m glad you’re lookin into stepping up in your classic American hobby cause a Camaro is always cooler them a Mustang!:grin2:....especially a Hugger orange 69 Camaro! :cool:

I live in Sweden and we can get parts over day locally from a lot of speed shops in Sweden but if you have to take it from us, within a week! I personally prefer to buy good stuff as cheap as possible through eBay and then take the parts by boat to Sweden. It takes longer time but is much more affordable.

Regarding engines you don’t mention the alternative I prefer, the 427 or 396!
The big block really makes your Camaro pop out as a real muscle car!

The coolest way is to go with the stick shift but I prefer the automatic cause it much easier to race and smother and easier to cruise in the town with, but it’s totally up to you...the loss of power is nothing you will notice, I promise!....especially with a 427 ZL-1 engine as I have! :grin2:

The value is always better with a matching number high end and original car as a SS/RS 396, Z/28, COPO but the rest is up to what the market and you prefer. The matching number cars in Sweden for example is more for the museums and car collectors...for the ordinary car enthusiast the looks and total appearance are more appreciated and will be paid for!

Good luck in your hunt and keep the questions coming, no question are dumb and there are a huge amount of knowledge here in the forums to help you! :thumbsup:
 
#4 ·
Having owned a 69 Mustang and having to deal with the many odd design and engineering aspects of the car while working on it I can tell you that making the switch to a first gen Camaro will be a good choice.

The biggest thing to look at on a Camaro is rust in the trunk, rear wheel wells, rocker panels and floor boards. Anything else mechanically is pretty straight forward so if it runs & drives you are doing well. Rebuilding and upgrading functional systems that are road worthy is no big deal compared to completing an unfinished project car with systems that may not have worked in decades. You may spend much more on a running car with a good body but the up front cost is a huge savings in time and money down the road on fixing rust and making the car run & drive.

If you are not concerned about keeping an original engine or transmission in the car then maybe a modern drivetrain swap is in order or even just the transmission. The LS engine swap is a very popular thing to do and can be done easily with many different donors for the drivetrain. Everything from an iron block 5.3L engine and the 4L60E overdrive automatic that came behind it from a truck, Suburban, Tahoe or van that can be had for next to nothing all the way up to a brand new turn key E-Rod engine package from Chevrolet with one of the current production ZL1 Camaro LSA supercharged 6.2L all aluminum engines, a stand alone engine harness and computer and the overdrive transmission of your choice with the control module and harness to operate it all designed for a swap into a non-computer controlled vehicle.

If you want to keep the look of the original small block then a 350 is a great engine and there are literally millions of them out there to choose from. Without overdrive you are limited to a pretty tall rear gear that makes an original automatic transmission no fun to drive around town if you want to cruise at high speeds for any sustained period of time with the car. Building one of the more common 700R4 / 4L60 transmissions to take even a mildly built 350 will be fairly expensive. They were not designed to take even 350 hp and have several internal hard parts that will physically fail at or below that power level. I broke too many of them with my 4th gen Firebird LT1 that had just the typical bolt-on upgrades to the engine over stock to ever put one into a vehicle where I had another choice. A 4L80E transmission is the overdrive version of the T-400 and can take quite a bit of power in stock form. With a basic rebuild and key upgrade parts it will take 800-hp all day long. It's heavier and robs a little power compared to the 4L60 but the durability is well worth it.

If you want a manual transmission then there are many options. A swap that the 3rd-gen Camaro/Firebird guys like to do is install the 4th-gen Camaro/Firebird 6-speed manual transmission in place of their 4-speed and 5-speed manual transmissions. With its 25% OD 5th gear and 50% OD 6th gear it is fantastic for high speed cruising. My 95 Z28 was only at 1700 rpm at 70 mph in 6th. It would be a great transmission for your car where you have access to the Autobahn and can let the car really fly. Speaking of flying, make sure you get a car with both the front and rear spoilers as they need to be installed as a set. Having just the rear one will cause the nose to lift more at high speeds than if the car did not have the rear spoiler. I have seen far too many cars out there with just the rear spoiler on them not to warn you about this since you can legally drive the car at extremely high speeds. The Z/28 design team did substantial wind tunnel and aerodynamic load testing on the car to design the spoilers for the Camaro to use in the Trans Am racing series so they are designed for high speed functionality not just for looks. They will be a safety benefit to you at high speeds and allow you to go faster with more control so if the car you get doesn't have them then I would suggest installing them.

There aren't any real reasons to pick one year over another other than looks so it just comes down to what you like the best. They all have slight emblem, trim and upholstery changes along with some major styling changes but mechanically they are very similar. Just minor updates for the most part as they continued to refine the car over the production years.

Good luck with your search. I know you won't be disappointed in making the switch from the dark side.
 
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#5 ·
The 1st question and your 1st priority is how are you going to use the Camaro?

Weekend cruiser? Track? Freeway or autobahn? A lot of stop and go traffic?

If fuel prices are a concern stay away from BBC. 350s are nice 383 stroker better an relatively inexpensive to build.

LS Swaps imho are the absolute best way to go with overdrive transmission.

But again it all comes back to how you intend to use the car.

I always say. Unless you do body and paint work yourself Buy the car with body and paint you can afford. Mechanics are easy to do and estimate costs. Body and paint can evolve into a long term money pit.
 
#6 ·
Hi all,


thanks a lot for your answers and the warm welcome!



I´m not planning to make a LS swap or something similar. I prefer to get the H (historic) license plate here in Germany and therefore the car should be as original as possible.



Regarding the usage: Mostly weekend and country road, no track, sometimes Autobahn and stop&go.



A big block would be very interesting of course but the initial investment is higher and also the maintenance so a "small" (which sounds very funny for Germans :laugh:) block is good for me.


Due to the amount of work I had with my Mustang I would now prefer to get a Camaro where I only have minor todos, for example this one here (if it is as described):
https : // www . pttmgarage . com/cars/7150/Chevrolet/Camaro_SS_4-speed
What do you think about this car? The last 5 pictures are from another car I think :grin2:


And maybe someone has answers to my questions 5 and 6 :wink2:?
 
#11 ·
5) Yes, same situation as the mustang here. Definitely worth the money to put a good sound deadener down before jute and carpeting. That will help with heat also if something like B-quiet type material is used.

6) Good once over is a must when buying a car. Change all fluids. Next address brakes and suspension. Great upgrades are disc brake conversion and suspension mods from mild to wild.

And welcome to Team Camaro!
 
#12 ·
Thanks a lot for your answers!

As an example I optimized the following things in my mustang (not to get primarily more power but just a better car):
- relais circuit for the head lights to save the light switch
- electrical charge controller instead of the mechanical one
- shelby drop (to get the front a bit lower but also to improve handling due to an optimized suspension geometry)
- pertronix ignition
- visco fan instead of the fixed mounted fan
- montecarlo bar

And here is a link to my Mustang: https : // suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=282544943&lang=de&utm_source=DirectMail&utm_medium=textlink&utm_campaign=Recommend_DES
 
#46 ·
In the case of the Black 69 for sale, it's likely the cowl induction hood is not original. If it were, you'd see a different air cleaner where the housing was designed to seal to the hood. There would also be a flap on the back part of the hood that would open under full throttle to channel colder, denser air from the pressure zone at the bottom of the windshield to the engine. This improved performance when the air cleaner was at least sealed to the hood. I have a complete cowl induction system on my 68. Chevelle's had a similar setup but the flap was on top of the hood, so you could see it open. On the Camaro, you can only really see this from the front seats.
 
#16 ·
AC sealed to hood is for cars with the raised cowl induction hood. Design to get ram air from the high pressure area below the windshield.

Snorkel is the original factory AC and open are aftermarket Air Cleaners
 
#17 ·
Thanks for the explanation. The idea behind the sealed AC was clear to me but I was confused because the Camaro SS I'm interested in has the raised cowl induction hood but the AC with a snorkel. The seller claims that this car is as original as it can be but the AC seems to be wrong, right?
 
#19 · (Edited)
Nice car but far from restored and original. Would need a personal close up inspection. Little things like the wire gutter appear missing in engine bay and the rough looking windlace at the doors would make me suspicious of the sellers claims.

Plug wires laying on the Headers PCV not hooked up, bent up fuel lines and overall lack of attention to detail.

Non SS hood and missing all the Cowl induction components leads me to think was not original SS car.

Would need to see VIN # and good picture of Cowl Tag.

I don’t know the European market but $61,250 USD would be approaching close to double the value of this car in the USA
 
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#22 ·
Little things like the wire gutter appear missing in engine bay and the rough looking windlace at the doors would make me suspicious of the sellers claims.

Thanks for the answer but I don´t understand what you mean. What/where should be the wire gutter? And what do you mean with "rough looking windlace at the doors"?



Plug wires laying on the Headers PCV not hooked up

Thanks for the confirrmation I also have seen these things.



Would need to see VIN # and good picture of Cowl Tag.


I asked the seller to get this...




I don’t know the European market but $61,250 USD would be approaching close to double the value of this car in the USA

I´m not an Camaro expert yet but compared to other offers the price seems to be okay respectively only a bit high for me here in Europe. But I´m open to buy a Camaro in the US. Maybe you have some recommendations/links where I could look for a proper SS?
 
#21 ·
Quote from the ad;
_______________________________________________________________
"We won't state that it's an original SS car, as without a build sheet with Chevy there is no way in proving that, but what we CAN say is that this car has all the original SS details, options and more to be a correct SS car and so nobody can state its not an actual SS car. But true SS or not, in this color and with these options and driveline this car will get thumbs up everywhere you will take it and will for sure also has the potential to win awards on car shows."
_______________________________________________________________

You should assume it's not a real SS ! If you want to investigate further, get pics of the cowl tag and engine, transmission and rear end stamps. Lots of BS being said in the ad, I don't have time to cover it all. SS 15" wheels (only Z/28 and COPO had 15"), SS gauges (gauges could be ordered for any V8 with console) etc....
 
#23 ·
Quote from the ad;
_______________________________________________________________
"We won't state that it's an original SS car, as without a build sheet with Chevy there is no way in proving that, but what we CAN say is that this car has all the original SS details, options and more to be a correct SS car and so nobody can state its not an actual SS car. But true SS or not, in this color and with these options and driveline this car will get thumbs up everywhere you will take it and will for sure also has the potential to win awards on car shows."
_______________________________________________________________

You should assume it's not a real SS ! If you want to investigate further, get pics of the cowl tag and engine, transmission and rear end stamps. Lots of BS being said in the ad, I don't have time to cover it all. SS 15" wheels (only Z/28 and COPO had 15"), SS gauges (gauges could be ordered for any V8 with console) etc....

Yes, I already asked the seller for the cowl tag, engine and so on...


What I also recognized on the pictures:

- the wheel chrome trim set is missing, isn´t it?
- the front tires are different to the rears (not a drama but I would prefer to have identical tires)

- no spare wheel in the trunk

- the 350 batch on the right side is crooked as well as the SS batch on the left side
 
#24 ·
Wheel trim rings are there, but doesn't have wheel well moldings. WW moldings were part of the Z21 style trim option, which included roof drip moldings (which it has), rear quarter panel louver moldings (gills) and headlight and taillight accents. There might be a few other items I'm missing here.... Not a 69 expert.;)
 
#28 ·
I don’t know the Value in Europe

Price reads with all costs. Is the a VAT or other fees?

The car you linked would be valued at around $35k usd beer in the states

Yes, the price includes all costs. But of course I would have to transfer the car from the dealer to me, prepare it for the H-license plate and then bring it to the H-inspection.



But if I could really get such a car for $35k then it would be very interesting to buy it in the US (even with the weak Euro at the moment). As far as I know I would have in this case the following costs:


- Getting the car from the seller to port ($200-$1000 depending on the distance?)
- shipping the car to Europe incl. insurance ($800-$1200 as far as I know)
- port handling (~$450)

- Tax (only 6-7% for historical cars --> ~$2000)
- getting the car to me (~$400)
 
#27 ·
OP

whatever car you want to buy....IMHO, look at it first vs pics and "internet description". I know your location makes this difficult but the plane fare will likely be well worth the effort. Or get a surrogate who you have complete trust in to verify what the car is

Consignment sources have the commission ($) incentive and sadly take the sellers description as fact.....when pictures often show discrepancies let alone a direct inspection of the car.

I looked for a long time before buying and I was not looking at the caliber of car you are.

I traveled in some cases to see some (of course no where near the distance you may have to) and one occasion went to a consignment place near Livermore, CA to visit my daughter (300 miles from where I live) and to see a "# matching 67 RS/SS 4 speed". for $50k. Thought this would be "the one". Walking up to it, it presented well from 10'.

Then the shiat hit the fan. I opened the hood (which explained why no engine bay pics in add) and it had 52 years of life on it. The consigner said the owner wanted to preserve the "patina"...which I replied the owner needs to clean his shiat if he is in a $50k league.

But I continued looking around the car. Paint and panel fit was "ok"...then looked under the car. Brand new under coat...big red flag (WTF undercoat and not paint sub frame and suspension also).

Then came the VIN tag and I look at the consigner and say these are not "rosette" rivets and the tag itself is a new piece of stainless steel, not a original VIN tag at all. It had no raised line on the edges. Stevie Wonder could see it was a fake.

So while the consigner should have and could have easily seen these discrepancies they advertised the car as the seller described it although in this case they took down the listing until the seller agreed to describe the car differently.

You really need to look at what you are buying
 
#29 ·
OP

whatever car you want to buy....IMHO, look at it first vs pics and "internet description". I know your location makes this difficult but the plane fare will likely be well worth the effort. Or get a surrogate who you have complete trust in to verify what the car is

Consignment sources have the commission ($) incentive and sadly take the sellers description as fact.....when pictures often show discrepancies let alone a direct inspection of the car.

I looked for a long time before buying and I was not looking at the caliber of car you are.

I traveled in some cases to see some (of course no where near the distance you may have to) and one occasion went to a consignment place near Livermore, CA to visit my daughter (300 miles from where I live) and to see a "# matching 67 RS/SS 4 speed". for $50k. Thought this would be "the one". Walking up to it, it presented well from 10'.

Then the shiat hit the fan. I opened the hood (which explained why no engine bay pics in add) and it had 52 years of life on it. The consigner said the owner wanted to preserve the "patina"...which I replied the owner needs to clean his shiat if he is in a $50k league.

But I continued looking around the car. Paint and panel fit was "ok"...then looked under the car. Brand new under coat...big red flag (WTF undercoat and not paint sub frame and suspension also).

Then came the VIN tag and I look at the consigner and say these are not "rosette" rivets and the tag itself is a new piece of stainless steel, not a original VIN tag at all. It had no raised line on the edges. Stevie Wonder could see it was a fake.

So while the consigner should have and could have easily seen these discrepancies they advertised the car as the seller described it although in this case they took down the listing until the seller agreed to describe the car differently.

You really need to look at what you are buying

Absolutely! I made similar experience when I was looking for my current Mustang. But also the car I bought hat much more problems than I have seen during the test drive.
 
#32 ·
I sold 2 cars at different time that went to Germany. Was not that difficult. Not Camaros but classic Hot Rods. Trucked to San Pedro on the west coast and in a container to Europe.
 
#33 ·
I asked the seller regarding the cowl tag, engine, gearbox, rear end. Here is his answer:

Hello Daniel;

With a Camaro its different.. you cant guarantee 100% if its an SS or not if you dont have a real factory original buildsheet or window sticker.

And 95% of the SS cars dont have that, so there is no real guarantee its a real SS350.

The car however had all the correct SS parts, even the dash with tacho, the correct odometer, the real center console etc etc
and other details, that we asume its a SS.

But you cant tell by engine and driveline numbers, you CAN do that / check that with a bigblock SS 396 as the have the are the only engine that was for sale in an SS car. But than the engine and trans must have the original VIN stamps there, as other whise you still cant tell without the buildsheet and so on.
But these cars that have that, are also 2x more expensive.( for a matching numb 396 with buildsheet)

a match or non match 350SS ( so one with buildsheet papers and one without) there is no real difference in vallue difference, overall quality of a car is much more looked at there.

So this car we have appears ( no way to gurantee by anybody) a true ss, its for sure the correct style engine, a real manual trans car, and correct style rear axle and emblems, side markers and so on.

So all that you could have to have a real SS, and it would cost more to transform this car into one in a real SS with all those parts, than a real SS would costs, so it just make no sence if its not the real deal.

Also keep in mind that the SS package was no more than some optional extras that you could buy on all Camaro’s even on a 302 or straight 6 cil car and says nothing over its engine or performance..

The only thing is to prove that this car is not an 6 cilinder is its Vin code, as thats correct V8 vin as the 6 cilinders had other Vin.

Thats all i can tell you in all open and honestly..

If it has all SS parts, it looks like an SS, has a manual 4 speed and hipo 350 engine... it must be an SS.. we cant prove its not one also so should be good.

regards!

Fred
Pttm.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone

Op 13 aug. 2019 om 18:05 heeft Daniel Hofmeier <daniel.hofmeier@gmx.de> het volgende geschreven:
Hi Fred,

in my previous mail (in German) I wrote that I would like to see these pictures/numbers to check whether it is a SS or not, because you are clearly writing in your ad that you are very sure that it is a real SS.

I´m not an Camaro expert yet but from my current Mustang I know that also the engine, the gearbox and the rear end have numbers/tags and I would wonder of a Camaro has not these numbers?

Daniel
 
#35 ·
I asked the seller regarding the cowl tag, engine, gearbox, rear end. Here is his answer:

Hello Daniel;

With a Camaro its different.. you cant guarantee 100% if its an SS or not if you dont have a real factory original buildsheet or window sticker.
BUT YOU CAN
And 95% of the SS cars dont have that, so there is no real guarantee its a real SS350.

The car however had all the correct SS parts, even the dash with tacho, the correct odometer, the real center console etc etc
and other details, that we asume its a SS.
The Center console was available on any model Camaro IN the USA we say ASSUME means make an *** of U and ME
But you cant tell by engine and driveline numbers, you CAN do that / check that with a bigblock SS 396 as the have the are the only engine that was for sale in an SS car. But than the engine and trans must have the original VIN stamps there, as other whise you still cant tell without the buildsheet and so on.
But these cars that have that, are also 2x more expensive.( for a matching numb 396 with buildsheet)
The SS350 engine most likely had the VIN stamped on it just like the 396. Often hard to read they are in the rough cast above the oil filter sometimes.
a match or non match 350SS ( so one with buildsheet papers and one without) there is no real difference in vallue difference, overall quality of a car is much more looked at there.
To many people it does make a difference. to me without the original engine it's not an SS because the SS was the engine AND some trim items.
So this car we have appears ( no way to gurantee by anybody) a true ss, its for sure the correct style engine, a real manual trans car, and correct style rear axle and emblems, side markers and so on.

So all that you could have to have a real SS, and it would cost more to transform this car into one in a real SS with all those parts, than a real SS would costs, so it just make no sence if its not the real deal.

Also keep in mind that the SS package was no more than some optional extras that you could buy on all Camaro’s even on a 302 or straight 6 cil car and says nothing over its engine or performance..
This in bold type is just false. RS (Rally Sport) could be had on all Camaros but an SS was an SS or an SS/RS and a Z/28 was a Z/28 not a Z/28 SS.
The only thing is to prove that this car is not an 6 cilinder is its Vin code, as thats correct V8 vin as the 6 cilinders had other Vin.

Thats all i can tell you in all open and honestly..

If it has all SS parts, it looks like an SS, has a manual 4 speed and hipo 350 engine... it must be an SS.. we cant prove its not one also so should be good.
OR A FAKE
regards!

Fred
Pttm.
JUST MY .02
Jeff
 
#34 · (Edited)
69 Camaro being one of the most iconic and desirable muscle cars of the era, unfortunately it's probably the most faked or misrepresented as well. And Chevrolet not keeping specific records has contributed to that. If one desires originality, we have to rely on the evidence presented with each car.

I prefer the term "experience" over expert, but that's what's needed when examining the evidence and its authenticity. Even window stickers and build sheets are reproduced. This car may have an X-code on the cowl tag, telling how it was built, generally speaking. "Numbers matching" engine and transmission are SOLID evidence if verified by an expert. Thankfully, we have some of those people here and at CRG and the Yenko site. Also, specific records on how a car was built were kept on Camaros sold new in Canada. These were Norwood built cars. There's an N in the VIN indicating Norwood. For a fee, you can provide a VIN and see if they have a record. General Info - Camaro FAQ

I feel the seller here has something to hide or simply lacks evidence of SS originality. If that's what you're looking for, move on (to the next car)….
 
#36 ·
OP

The link I posted to CRG you can "breakdown" the VIN and cowl tag which will show date/location built, V8 or 6 cyl along with various trim options, etc. to the "cowl tag" (read assuming the tags are original to the car)

The engine has on the PS front of block at head stamp info of build . If the engine has been rebuilt with the block decked these #'s can be hard to see but also the "Build" info is on (Date, location}. Same with rear end.

It's the dates built that is the clue. Components (Engines, Trans, Rear End) generally are built 1-4 weeks prior to the build date of the car. If those dates show good than they are "original" to the car. Sometimes a engine is a few years newer, for example, that could mean the original owner blew his motor and got a replacement or the restorer found a "as close" date code motor.


CRG will have all the info on what and where the info is you would need to check.

The response from the consigner, to me, sadly sounds like so many where they just either take sellers verification or "ignore" themselves as so many "buyers" just don't know. Nothing wrong with well built "clones"...but to me that point should be clear between seller/consigner & buyer

This is why you need to look at a car, including getting underneath it, to pull ID info to verify at least what the parts say they are. Driving the car and checking all mechanicals also

Otherwise you are left to make a decision on what the seller is presenting.
 
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