My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander?? - Team Camaro Tech
Team Camaro Tech join team camaro
 Ground Up Restorations

Official Sponsor of Team Camaro



Registered users (free) do not see these large ads

Second Generation 1970-1981


Like Tree1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Display Modes
Old Jul 20th, 16, 02:10 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ottawa canada
Posts: 6
My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander??

Hi folks - I have an issue with my 1970 Camaro that is boggling my mind.
Have an 800 series quick ratio steering box and 17 inch rims all around wrapped in 255 45s.
When driving car steering feels loose - I guess that is a good term - when road is bumpy or with ruts car tends to jolt to the side with the rut - either left or right not preferring one side to other!
Alignment is good, steering box not leaking, suspension components all tight, not sure what is issue. Any thoughts on what I should inspect would be appreciated!
Thanks
Original1970 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 20th, 16, 04:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
Moderator
 
DOUG G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 19,693
Garage
Send a message via MSN to DOUG G
Re: My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander??

What is the caster and camber numbers ?(post a pic of the paperwork maybe)

Stock or lowered ?
__________________
68 Camaro~LSx ~all motor
1.54 60'--6.95 @ 98.45 660'--10.96 @ 121.53
DOUG G is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 20th, 16, 05:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ottawa canada
Posts: 6
Not sure of specs but alignment shop did stock specs on alignment. Car is lowered with Hotchkis lowering bb springs in front and Hotchkis leafs in rear.
Original1970 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 20th, 16, 08:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: MN
Posts: 341
Garage
Re: My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander??

Far more experts on here then me.

How long have you had the car driving on the road in this configuration?

I know from personal experience on my wife's Toyota car we had the stock wheels and tires, and then a nice 17" rim and low pro performance tires for the summers. When ever I had them swapped out in the spring it seemed that the car was all over the place grabbing every road seam, until I got used to it then seemed normal.

With the bigger performance tire/wheel combo might need a little more aggressive alignment then stock.

Just my 2cents.
__________________
My '69 RS Primer driver project
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
KJProX is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 21st, 16, 03:19 AM   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ottawa canada
Posts: 6
Thanks -not sure I can get more caster as I have stock control arms - upper and lower - do you think those need to be upgraded?
Original1970 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 21st, 16, 05:24 AM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 1,656
Re: My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander??

back when I had my 70 I noticed that it wandered alignment had been toed out reset to toe in and that fixed it
__________________
69 R/S Z/28 302 X33 D80 late 09C
69 T/A clonification LS6-6speed under construction
15 ZL1
64 Chevelle wagon 6.0l planned sons toy
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 21st, 16, 06:16 AM   #7 (permalink)
Gold Lifetime Member
 
yellow69RS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 5,270
Send a message via Yahoo to yellow69RS
Re: My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander??

Stock specs on alignments have a large range that is still "OK". If I was doing alignments today I would set your car 's camber at 0 (+/- 1/4) with all the positive caster I could get. Set toe in to 1/16 in. Also remember the factory specs on our old cars were meant for bias ply tires not radials.

Jeff
yellow69RS is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 21st, 16, 07:05 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ottawa canada
Posts: 6
Thanks for info. I will get an alignment within specs you noted and hopefully it will fix issue- otherwise will maybe try upgraded control arms to get more caster
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image_1469109932994.jpg
Views:	80
Size:	67.0 KB
ID:	154929  
Original1970 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 21st, 16, 01:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 1,352
Re: My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander??

Many times when a Bigger Tire Patch (larger tire) is introduced, you can get tramlining.

Here is a Good Article

Tire Tech Information - Tramlining: Coping with the Ruts in the Road
BMR Suspension is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 21st, 16, 03:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
Moderator
 
DOUG G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 19,693
Garage
Send a message via MSN to DOUG G
Re: My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander??

I know when I had slicks (bias-ply) on the rear, it liked to walk around a lot....not fun
__________________
68 Camaro~LSx ~all motor
1.54 60'--6.95 @ 98.45 660'--10.96 @ 121.53
DOUG G is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 22nd, 16, 06:10 AM   #11 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
Everett#2390's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Va Beach VA
Posts: 32,180
Garage
Re: My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander??

Good suggestions her, bigger contact patch, more friction, custom alignment needed.
Keep tire pressure up, say 35-36 PSIG, always use the same gauge,
Ensure wheel bearings are tightened properly,
and as a troubleshooting tip, loosen both upper arm nuts, pry out arm, if needed, and insert a 1/8 inch shim in the REAR bolt, and tighten.
Drive for comparison.
BMR kind of hit the nail on the head - very old term.
__________________
Give a man a rescued dog for the health of both their souls. May 2017 ROTM Winner - Thank you!
'
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CUBS - 2016 World Series Champions - Thank you, Joe Madden Ö enjoy your next chapter.
Everett#2390 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 22nd, 16, 06:37 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ottawa canada
Posts: 6
Thank you to all for great suggestions - will try them and hope I get this fixed - hopefully it will give me a bit mor road feel on steering as well as address the tramlining
Original1970 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 22nd, 16, 02:32 PM   #13 (permalink)
Gold Lifetime Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 3,204
Re: My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander??

One other thing. Even with stock arms, you need to deviate slightly from the factory specs for toe-in, which ASSUMED bias ply tires. The factory spec is 1/8 to 1/4. You want 1/16 ideally, and NO MORE than 1/8. With the wider tires, you are also better off with zero camber. Many folks with tell you to run lots of negative camber, but you really do not need to on a street car with stock control arms. -1 works great at the auto cross, but you tires will wear out much sooner.

If your alignment guy can get you a little more caster than the book calls for, great, but don't sweat it.

MOST CARS I HAVE DIAGNOSED for tramlining simply had the wrong tire. I had some 17 inch Dunlop tires on a BMW that tramlined something awful, and that car has 6.5 degrees positive caster. Replaced them with Michelins and all was good. Have since used BFG, Bridgestone, Khumo, and several others, and none of them tramlined. Not all Dulops would tramline, but some tread patterns simply do on some cars.

BTW, factory specs (again, understand this was for a skinny bias ply tire) were:
Caster Pos 1/2, + or - 1/2 (in other words, 0 to 1 pos).
Camber Pos 1/4 + or - 1/2 (in other words neg 1/4 to pos 1/4 (quite the range)
Toe 1/8 to 1/4 measured in inches. Most of the new alignment equipment measures to in degrees.
Caster and Camber should not vary much side to side. Ideally, I used to set driver's side camber just a bit more positive than the right side. That compensates for the road crown and helps keep the car going straight.

Even with your alignment perfect, the car may tramline (dart back and forth with ruts or grooves in the road). If so, you will need to try different tires. Maybe you have a friend with an old Chevy, and you can borrow a set for a test drive.

Good luck.
__________________
Lynn
bilodeaulynn is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 22nd, 16, 04:21 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ottawa canada
Posts: 6
Tires are BFG g-force comp-2. Fairly good quality.
Thanks for the detailed note/advice - greatly appreciated.
Would thrust angle also affect tramlining? Quick measurement front bottom of wheel well opening to tire shows driver side approx 1/2" closer to front of car.
Robert
Original1970 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old Jul 23rd, 16, 08:08 AM   #15 (permalink)
Gold Lifetime Member
 
yellow69RS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 5,270
Send a message via Yahoo to yellow69RS
Re: My 1970 is squirrelly and wants to wander??

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow69RS View Post
Stock specs on alignments have a large range that is still "OK". If I was doing alignments today I would set your car 's camber at 0 (+/- 1/4) with all the positive caster I could get.Set toe in to 1/16 in. Also remember the factory specs on our old cars were meant for bias ply tires not radials.

Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilodeaulynn View Post
One other thing. Even with stock arms, you need to deviate slightly from the factory specs for toe-in, which ASSUMED bias ply tires. The factory spec is 1/8 to 1/4. You want 1/16 ideally, and NO MORE than 1/8. With the wider tires, you are also better off with zero camber. Many folks with tell you to run lots of negative camber, but you really do not need to on a street car with stock control arms. -1 works great at the auto cross, but you tires will wear out much sooner.

If your alignment guy can get you a little more caster than the book calls for, great, but don't sweat it.

MOST CARS I HAVE DIAGNOSED for tramlining simply had the wrong tire. I had some 17 inch Dunlop tires on a BMW that tramlined something awful, and that car has 6.5 degrees positive caster. Replaced them with Michelins and all was good. Have since used BFG, Bridgestone, Khumo, and several others, and none of them tramlined. Not all Dulops would tramline, but some tread patterns simply do on some cars.

BTW, factory specs (again, understand this was for a skinny bias ply tire) were:
Caster Pos 1/2, + or - 1/2 (in other words, 0 to 1 pos).
Camber Pos 1/4 + or - 1/2 (in other words neg 1/4 to pos 1/4 (quite the range)
Toe 1/8 to 1/4 measured in inches. Most of the new alignment equipment measures to in degrees.
Caster and Camber should not vary much side to side. Ideally, I used to set driver's side camber just a bit more positive than the right side. That compensates for the road crown and helps keep the car going straight.

Even with your alignment perfect, the car may tramline (dart back and forth with ruts or grooves in the road). If so, you will need to try different tires. Maybe you have a friend with an old Chevy, and you can borrow a set for a test drive.

Good luck.
Great minds think alike!

The only place we differ is compensating for road crown. At Bear alignment school in the early 80's I was encouraged to use caster to compensate. IIRC the car pulls to the side of the least positive so I would put left cast 1/2 degree lower then right. We were told to do that as Caster is not a tire wearing angle I saw many cars with a 1/4 in camber variation that the tires seemed to wear fine on.

Jeff
yellow69RS is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply
Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.

Email Address:
Location
Location
First Name
Rather than just Hot69, gotta real name?

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


» Recent Discussions
67 RS Headlights Doors...
Today 07:37 PM
Last post by Mike Cohen
Today 10:06 PM
1 Replies, 54 Views
New emerging...
Mar 1st, 19 07:00 AM
by Gbauer
Last post by rogerh
Today 10:04 PM
10 Replies, 91 Views
Newbie seeking wisdom
Today 09:29 PM
by Cc0599
Last post by Cc0599
Today 09:40 PM
1 Replies, 18 Views
Off topic forum
Today 04:05 AM
by dhutton
Last post by slazisme
Today 08:17 PM
33 Replies, 531 Views
Looking for Some...
Today 12:21 PM
Last post by jimsl78
Today 07:58 PM
3 Replies, 126 Views
5 years of work to get...
May 27th, 20 01:39 PM
Last post by 97 CAIVIAROSS
Today 06:57 PM
8 Replies, 388 Views
Flushing Coolant...
Today 08:30 AM
Last post by DjD
Today 06:57 PM
5 Replies, 145 Views
Installing roof rail...
Today 12:06 PM
Last post by Sauron67MM
Today 06:36 PM
3 Replies, 128 Views
Kick Panel Speakers and...
Yesterday 07:28 PM
Last post by Nantooch
Today 05:17 PM
5 Replies, 164 Views
tire valve stem lenght...
Yesterday 07:56 AM
Last post by Nantooch
Today 05:09 PM
1 Replies, 172 Views
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:09 PM.



Camaros.net - © 2009 AutoForums.com
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.