Powerjection III vs FAST EZ - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old May 10th, 10, 06:13 AM Thread Starter
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Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

Hey guys, any thoughts on powerjection III vs FAST EZ? I was going the FAST EZ route when i stumbled upon powerjection III which I liked. Also, has anyone heard about plans for either system to go with a pulsed fuel pump/system, thus not requiring a return line?
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old May 10th, 10, 07:27 PM
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

The pulsed system was pulled from the catalog a while back. Didn't work. What interests me is the pushrod pump. Professional products manufactures theirs under license from Racepumps.com. Racepumps.com list an FI pump but I can't find much more info about them. My car has always been electrically challenged so a mechanical FI pump would be an asset.

68 302 M20 - 85 IROC Z
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old May 10th, 10, 07:33 PM
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejs4732 View Post
Hey guys, any thoughts on powerjection III vs FAST EZ? I was going the FAST EZ route when i stumbled upon powerjection III which I liked. Also, has anyone heard about plans for either system to go with a pulsed fuel pump/system, thus not requiring a return line?

I have the Powerjection III and would have to say that if you want a bolt-on and go that the FAST system may be better. There are some little niggles with the Retrotek that I do not like.

For one thing, they put a limit in the autotune mode so that it can only add or subtract 25% fuel from a point in the base map when it is rewriting it. They did that because people were running their cars out of gas, it would autotune to max injector pulse width because of the lean condition, then when they got gas the car wouldn't start because it was flooding due to it being way too rich. That means your base map has to be pretty close to start with and I'm finding that in order to get the lower RPM's low enough so it isn't pig rich even after going -25% in some cells that you have to drop your torque value (which is how the base map is calculated) way down. I'm concerned that this will affect the higher RPM's in that maybe they'll max out at +25 additional fuel and still be too lean.

I have fooled with it and have it running good but haven't been all the way in it yet as my drivetrain only has a couple hundred miles on it. Retrotek does have very good tech support though.

If you like to tune then maybe the Retrotek is for you because they put a lot more functionality into it than FAST did. I told them that most people who are shopping for EFI aren't going to want to fool with it and most won't be like me and sit there and watch their AFR ratios and do traces and find out that it's not running where it is supposed to even if it seems to be running OK. I guess really the autotune limitation is my main gripe and I told them there has to be a better way to protect morons who can't keep gas in their cars then what they have set up now.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old May 11th, 10, 07:40 PM
kt
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

I see that the Powerjection III has a 750 cfm t-body and the fast is 1000, if ones needs that much cfm. Also one thing i like about the fast is the fact the ecm can be mounted in a cool location, electronics like cool....
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old May 11th, 10, 08:11 PM
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

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Originally Posted by kt View Post
I see that the Powerjection III has a 750 cfm t-body and the fast is 1000, if ones needs that much cfm. Also one thing i like about the fast is the fact the ecm can be mounted in a cool location, electronics like cool....

Retrotek calls theirs a 750 so that it will be more identifiable to carb guys. It really flows over 950cfm. If they called it a 950, some people would take a look and say it was too big. With EFI, it'll flow whatever it needs to flow since you're not working with venturi vacuum to pull the fuel.

The pulsed system was one of their original setups for returnless a couple of years ago and it didn't work so well. However, the one they list now is a new iteration of it. I posted up about the piston pumps a while back and no one had anything good to say about them.

Here is a snippet of an email from Cody at Retrotek:

-------
4. Our system and the FAST system are targeted to two different crowds. Even though most retailers and magazines like to say that our system is bolt on and go, itís really not, although sometimes it is if the application is a crate ZZ4 motor. The FAST system is targeted to the guy that wants to do NO tuning and doesnít have or want to use a laptop. Our system REQUIRES the use and minor tuning with a laptop. Our system allows tuning for every aspect of how the system works while the FAST system only allows for very little tuning on very little applications. If a person buys the system and does not want to change anything then at that point it is like putting a carb on the engine and not doing anything with it. If the engine is close to what the base file is setup for then it will work great. If not, then engine will not run well.
-----

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old May 11th, 10, 09:34 PM
kt
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

Ahh....thanks for the info!!...
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 11, 07:22 AM
 
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

Hi Guys,

I see people wondering about Powerjection III from Performance Products. Avoid this product I think is the best advice I can offer. I have attempted to get it to work with their "self-learning". There is simply a lot of omitted information regarding this product.

There is a favorable writeup in Mustang & Fast Fords (along with some others) about how great this is. They say something like "in a flash we had the old mechanical pump out and the new EFI pump in it's place..." What they don't tell you is that there is already an existing electric fuel pump at the tank to supply their EFI pump - which people probably know an electric fuel pump is better at pushing, not pulling.

These types of information omissions are sheepishly revealed if you directly ask someone on their tech line on YOUR nickel why their documentation seems to contradict itself and some of the writeups some of which their rep's are actually participating in.

Now to the part of how it actually works (or doesn't). I think Steiner is on the money when he said "There are some little niggles". I spent 20 minutes trying to get a hot restart on the side of the road on my 3rd attempt to allow the car to "self dial". This was not an issue with underhood heat either because the ecu was something like 117 and the water temp was around 165 at the time. I finally got a hot restart by vastly increasing the band width in one of their menus related to cranking based on an instinct. After a few times of the motor barely catching with one sput with the increased pulsewidth settings, I mashed the gas and feathered the pedal to prevent stalling (which happened several times) and immediately headed for home to arrive to a very PO'd missus (who was justifiably so because we were supposed to leave for somewhere and this was just going to be a "quick" around the block "self dial" trip). Their documentation actually says "Drive your vehicle and enjoy!" -Not!

Other details:
-------------
Their default fuel map never even started the car. It would only sputter with the help of a blast of starting fluid while you tripped the starter solenoid with an external switch.

So I went to the next supplied base map - the one for the Big Block that revs to 4500. Only got it to start with this by retarding the time by 20 degrees, then discovered a setting (that can be changed thankfully) that primes the motor before you start cranking - which was impossible with 12 degrees initial advance with 10:1 compression and a full snoot of air-fuel before the motor even revolved a degree. Figured this out, restored inital advance and went for a "drive". Opening the throttle to attempt to accelerate cause a series of bad stumbles complete with pops and bangs, a brief few moments of pretty good acceleration until the 4500 rpm barrier was hit with lots of stumbles and bangs. When I let off to shift to 2nd gear - KABOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!! out the back - must've scared the **it out of the people in the minivan behind me

There's a setting for decel that sets pulsewidth to zero under certain conditions. If you have a manual transmission, it will cost you a set of new mufflers until you figure out how to disable this.

Overall the motor had a hard time getting to 5000 rpm at which point I gave up and went home to try a 3rd fuel map that is also supplied. Long story short - the 3rd map, supposedly good for 6500 rpm and 400 pound-ft of torque sucked and performed exactly as badly as the one for the big block with 450 pound-ft of torque.

Emailed one of their tech guys with specs on my motor and detailing some observations/experiences with the 850 dbl pump before and with the Powerjection III now. Followed the instructions in his reply explicitly, and the results were even worse. Part of that experience was the 20 minute by the roadside ditty mentioned above.

Additional info:
-------------
I went with their fabled Fuel On Demand (FOD) "returnless" setup. I spent a great deal of time fabricating 3/8" steel tubing for all high pressure lines, drilling out and polishing radiuses inside fittings to make sure all high side fuel lines maintained a truly consistent inside diameter. Their fabled Fuel On Demand (FOD) setup is fed with a Carter high volume mechanical pump less than 12" away also via 3/8" steel tubing w/ no kinks -even sprang for a new/better tubing bender at the beginning of this project and a 37 degree flare tool. The Carter fuel pump was able to supply an 850 Holley dbl pmp with 9 unwavering psi at WOT at 6700 rpm and climbing on a .030 over Mopar 440 w/ Total Seal gapless rings, Arias quench dome pistons, polished chambers, valve bowls and a .224/.230 @ .050 cam with about about a half inch of valve lift on both Exhaust and Intake. The intake is an Edelbrock Torker II single plane and the aircleaner is a 14" x 4" tall open element. Also, your existing drop base aircleaner won't fit - it looks like it should, but it won't. I had to cut my base to clear what looks like float bowls and weld in some stainless steel sheetmetal sections to get my aircleaner to fit under the hood. I got the idea to use the mechanical pump with their FOD kit from several of the glowing reviews about how great this product is and discussions with their tech people on my nickel (did I mention you have to pay to talk to them even after you paid over $1000 for their product?).

I have actually had an easier time tuning Chrysler 6 pak setups that I got in a basket than this so far - if you can believe it.

Sorry guys, wish I had some positive experience to relate. I actually eagerly waited for months after the announcement of their 70028 kit until they actually released it for sale to buy it so you can imagine my disappointment.

I am going to try and post this experience on as many message boards as I can because I think people should know what this product actually performs like given all the promotional "...works for any engine..." "...if your combination is even close, you'll be fine because it's... Self learning!... " hullaboo.

To give some perspective, I've rebuilt 5 engines that I can think of -Ford, Chevy and Mopar, 3 transmissions, a Ford 9", and a bunch of motorcycles and lots of carburetors (including multiple carb setups) over the years and still maintain 2 modern fuel injected regular drivers including one that came with a salvage title (cheap!) I may not be the world's most experienced mechanic, but I'm not a beginner either.
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 11, 07:32 AM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

Wait a minute.....the system requires 45psi and you were feeding it with a Carter mechanical fuel pump?

The fuel on demand kit wires to an electric pump and pulse width modulates it to maintain pressure.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 11, 08:24 AM
 
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

No, you feed the inlet of the EFI electric pump with the mechanical pump, so the electric pump that comes with the kit is receiving positive pressure. This is an idea that they promote so you can use less high pressure line.

After I first got the car running, I hooked my laptop to the FOD to see about fuel pressure and it was set at 45 PSI with a lower limit of 35 and an upper of 65 psi.

After my initial dismal test drive results, I set the 45 psi setting up to 65 psi to see if that might help, but that didn't make any difference either.

Another thing they don't tell you about "simply change the setting from return style to returnless by passing the magnet by the FOD box..." is that it will only take effect if the pump is spinning. That is a pretty short window when you 1st energize the system and the pump is priming. The pump stops after 15 seconds (can be adjusted) if no distributor signal is sensed - not a bad idea for safety - but the unexpected result is that it's hard to turn the key on and get to the FOD box to pass the magnet before the pump stops spinning so you can change the setting to returnless. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered to run the car briefly on the wrong setting until the magnet can be passed, but I am sort of anal about things like this and also think it is indicative of their poor documentation and glossing things over for how "easy" it is promotionals.

I have a laptop, and work on computers for a living (currently at NASA writing flight simulator software). My point is that this system isn't for beginners, doesn't work as advertised, and has a lot of hidden surprises. They say you only have to hookup a computer "if you want to" otherwise it will sort itself out. --Ain't so. I own a ball joint press, a drill press, an engine stand and hoist, an acetylene torch, a decent mig welder and alot of other stuff that the average guy might not have laying around. My motivation is that people should be aware that this product isn't what they say it is. Maybe someday with a thousand extra more hours of free time I'll get it dialed in exactly by creating a custom fuel map for every cell. Everything just takes time right?
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 11, 08:43 AM
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

Nice write-up oldgearhead! I am not a mechanic either (but I have all the tools you have, except I got rid of my oxy/acy tanks a while back and miss them! ). I will be going wth the FAST EFI in the future for a 51 truck, just for the reasons you guys state, ease of use and more plug and play. I do have a laptop too (and work in the IT industry), but do not want to spend countless hours programing a fuel table! Thanks!

Kevin


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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 11, 10:58 AM
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

Oh, that setup makes sense.

I agree this system is not a bolt on and go. If you look at the info Cody sent me a few posts up, he was very candid about that. He is no longer with the company though although he was at that point. He said they originally set it up as a system that needed to be tuned with the benefit of being able to zero in once it was close. Then the marketing side of the business started pushing it as a bolt on system. The F.A.S.T. system has much more complex programming and teaches itself the cold start stuff, accel enrichment, etc....all things that you have to work on with the PJIII if you are using anything other than a basic 350. The Accel TBI system is similar in that respect as it comes set up for 300hp and has to be tuned from there although it costs about $2100 and can only support 350-400hp before having to buy new injectors and pump but it does have timing control and more features.

I have tuned pretty much every aspect of mine and have it running pretty good. You can see my engine setup in my sig. If you want I can email you my configuration and it might get you closer. I also have the password which lets you go in and change things like adaptive learn limits and turn on temp, closed loop turn on temp, closed loop adjustment percentage, how long the engine has to sit on a certain load and RPM to input an adaptive learn value, etc.

Also be aware that I found a glitch in the software and let them know about it. They are working on a fix plus other things that have come up talking to myself and several other people over on a Buick board. A former tech and a current tech have been active there. The current tech is pushing them to get a forum set up on their website and so far it has been approved but has to be set up.

Oh, the glitch....if you adjust fuel in the fuel wizard it only works once. The next time you go in and move a slider, every slider that you didn't touch gets reset to the value that would come up if you hit "calculate". This also affects saving and loading configurations. The only way around it is to move each slider up and down one click OR use the password to go in and overwrite the default .mcs file on your laptop by making a new table in the cam/manifold manager. It is also easy to make logs and then manually input adaptive learn values which is how I tuned my wide open throttle on the dyno.






'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 11, 01:08 PM
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

HHmmmm....I'm am getting ready to pull the trigger on a system for my basic 355 SBC and I was leaning towards the PJIII. Is the Fast system any better? Are there pitfalls with both?

Steiner I watched your cold start before and to tell you the truth thats what sold me on the PJIII as I do need a choke due to colder temps and thought yours did well on the cold temp start. What are the specs on your motor if I could "borrow" your config that would make my life much easier!

Thanks

Steve
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 11, 06:51 PM
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverlookin View Post
HHmmmm....I'm am getting ready to pull the trigger on a system for my basic 355 SBC and I was leaning towards the PJIII. Is the Fast system any better? Are there pitfalls with both?

Steiner I watched your cold start before and to tell you the truth thats what sold me on the PJIII as I do need a choke due to colder temps and thought yours did well on the cold temp start. What are the specs on your motor if I could "borrow" your config that would make my life much easier!

Thanks

I've spoken with someone that has the EZ-EFI on a 570hp Buick and he's pretty happy with it. He said the only thing that took a while to get was the cold start and it dialed itself in after 20 cold starts or so. The EZ system tunes that stuff itself, the PJIII does not. You can see which one is more of a bolt on system.... the EZ has like three or four inputs you can change, the PJ has like 80. There are some things that Retrotek is being made aware of and hopefully they're working on a software update. You can do a whole lot more with the PJ but the down side is that there is a lot that it won't do for you on its own. I personally got it because it was more open.

If I were you I'd download the manuals and software for both units and look at them. My config would likely not work for your engine if it's a basic 355. I have changed basically everything you can change in the base configuration. I ran the PJ on my old 310hp 355 for a couple hundred miles while my 400 was being built and it took a lot of tuning to get it to where it's at now.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 11, 11:33 PM
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

WOW, Some people just amaze me with their level of intelligence ...
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 11, 04:22 PM
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Re: Powerjection III vs FAST EZ

Dont forget the new Holley systems...real nice stuff, full ignition control too along with a BUNCH of other stuff.

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502 EFI/[224/228 HR]/T56/3.90
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