At an Impass - Team Camaro Tech
EFI in your modern Classic EFI conversions in early Camaros

 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 30th, 11, 10:41 AM Thread Starter
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At an Impass

I have a HO454 with a Projection 1 system I bought several years ago. Last year I added a Procharger. I was able to get support from Retrotek and modified my system with Larger Injectors and MAP sensor and it worked ok for a while. Then I started to have fuel overheating problems. Now on my 3rd pump have fixed it for now. But the system leans out everytime I come to a stop. It doesn't seem to adjust the A/F out. Now the factory guy who knew the product is gone the product is discontinued and I am still having trouble getting this thing to work right. Been at it a year and half. Tired of fighting it and being unreliable. Thinking of going back to a tried and true carburetor. I think the car is making about 600 Hp at the wheels. Any suggestions on a good blow thru carburetor? My friends really like Edelbrock but they are normally aspirated.

_______________________________
69 Camaro, Air Ride Suspension,
Procharged HO 454, 700R4, 12 bolt with Yukon axles, 3:73 gears posi, Pypes 2.5" X pipe with Borla XS mufflers. Retrotek Speed EFI, Ridetech suspension.
Rushforth rated X with Toyo tires. MSD 6 ignition.
Wilwood 6 piston Dynalite disc brakes with Hydratech booster.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 30th, 11, 01:32 PM
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mark
 
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Re: At an Impass

I did a quick search at jegs and they sell demon blow through carbs from 575 cfm to 850 cfm for less than $600. maybe someone with a similar setup will chime in. sounds like you have a nice setup. 600 horsepower at the wheels is pretty impressive. good luck with whatever setup you go with. mark


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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old May 1st, 11, 08:24 AM
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Maurice
 
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Re: At an Impass

I can sypathize with your issues but do you really want to regress back to carbureation?
given the fact that you can no longer receive good support and are having continuing issues with the existing system, If you cant effectivley address those fuel issues I would really consider a new EFI system. granted, it's more than a $600 dollar carb, but i'd never go back to a carb if I could help it. your car sounds pretty high-end to me. have you considered the new Holley EFI systems, the HP or dominator system come to mind for your application. those new systems are self tuning and can easily manage what your running. and you would not have to screw with tuning a carb. you could apply the $ 600 or so to the new EFI system and maybe sell off your existing injection harduare/components to offset the cost of the upgrade. obviously your call, thats just my 5 cents...(inflation)

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old May 2nd, 11, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: At an Impass

68zz thanks for the thoughts. I have been having the same thoughts myself. Next question is which is the best system. The dominator looks interesting, which TBI do you use with it? Can they handle 600 HP?
I looked at the Holley and fast system. They both look nice. One thing is I would like it to fit under my STD cowl hood. I have the low profile hat from pro charger.

_______________________________
69 Camaro, Air Ride Suspension,
Procharged HO 454, 700R4, 12 bolt with Yukon axles, 3:73 gears posi, Pypes 2.5" X pipe with Borla XS mufflers. Retrotek Speed EFI, Ridetech suspension.
Rushforth rated X with Toyo tires. MSD 6 ignition.
Wilwood 6 piston Dynalite disc brakes with Hydratech booster.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old May 2nd, 11, 07:51 PM
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Maurice
 
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Re: At an Impass

I'd go Holley if it was me. the HP is plenty for most applications. the Dominator has many more functions, but is esentally the same ECU as the other new Holley EFI's. all have self tuning feature. I'd suggest the MPFI vs the TBI system. TBI systems spray fuel all the time, similar to an electronic carbureator. batch fire (MPFI) systems spray 4 cyls., then the next 4 cyls.sequental MPFI requires a cam sensor and is better all around when compared to TBI and batch fire MPFI. Since it only sprays fuel when it's time for the cylinder to fire. although batch fire vs sequental fire isn't a HUGE advantage. MPFI vs TBI injects fuel much closer to the cylinder and it atomizes fuel much better and less fuel is wasted.the basic Holley HP EFI is batch fire fuel strategy and still works better than TBI systems. TBI sprays fuel into a carb-like intake manifold at the plentum and from there it's the air and fuel's job to get things done. the multi-point/port atomizes the fuel at the nozzle near the intake valve, much more efficient. so if I was going to upgrade my EFI system I would not get another TBI system, I'd go to MPFI. MPFI will also potentially give a bit more flexability over TBI systems with respect to your induction heigth. and most importantly... MPFI just looks much cooler!

Just my opinion.

BE different....ACT normal.

No one is completely useless..They can always be used as a bad example

Last edited by 68zz502fi; May 2nd, 11 at 08:04 PM.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old May 3rd, 11, 04:24 PM
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Re: At an Impass

Quote:
Originally Posted by 68zz502fi View Post
MPFI vs TBI injects fuel much closer to the cylinder and it atomizes fuel much better and less fuel is wasted.
While this is true, if you look at some of the cutting edge race stuff, they are moving the injectors higher up the intake tract - similar to putting the injectors at the top of a tunnel ram intake. When fuel atomizes it cools the surrounding air down. Most of this effect is lost by injecting fuel at the bottom of the intake. This is a benefit of TBI - more time to cool the air down, just like a carb.

With the Procharger, I would go the TBI route. It's much simpler and you retain the benefit of the cooling effect. Procharger's advertising back when they first introduced their superchargers stated you didn't need to run an intercooler on their carb setups because of this and I didn't.

Last point... There is a company called Retrotek Speed that makes a TBI system that looks just like a Holley carb. I believe Professional Products markets the systems now. I was on the Power Tour several years ago and the company had a Mustang with both their TBI system and their MPFI system installed on the car. There was a switch the driver could flip to move between systems. The guy said that they built the engine to prove that MPFI was not really any better than TBI and he said that the engine dynoed pretty much the same with each system controlling fuel delivery. IIRC, the engine had a typical single plane EFI intake on it.

1969 Camaro - Intense Blue Pearlcoat/white (Baldwin-Motion paint scheme), stock 6.2 liter L92 with VVT, LS3 intake, Doug's Headers; Tremec TKO, 3.73 12-bolt posi.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old May 3rd, 11, 06:00 PM
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Re: At an Impass

Bob, I'm just looking through the manual for the PJ-I (I've got the PJ-III). You're not running the returnless fuel feature that it mentions, right?

I did the fueling map on my PJ-III from the ground up so have a little experience with the "adaptive learning" stuff although my system has several differences compared to yours.

Have you done this step from the instructions:
------
3d. Apply VE Correction
The “Apply VE” correction feature allows you to apply the learned percentages you have accumulated while driving and apply them to your original profile.
Tip: this feature can be useful if the EMS has reached the maximum learning amount of 30% but more learning is required.
Note: After applying correction you will need to clear “Sync Learn” to allow the EMS to start fresh.
This function can be done multiple times after driving, but Does Not! Need to be done to function correctly.
------


If I read that right, it will limit the amount of offset (long term learning) applied to your base fuel to 30%. If the base fuel is way off, then it'll go to 30% plus or minus and that's it....it'll never tune all the way in. The PJ-III comes set up at 25% but you can change it. However, you can also go in and modify the base fuel so that it gets moved to where it's within the 50 point window. I had a big problem with my base calculation idles being way rich even with adaptive learn maxed out which is what led me to just do my own map.

So, if I'm reading that VE step right it sounds like what it will do is take your long term learning values and apply them directly to your base map. Then that will basically make you a new base map and set your adaptive learn values back to 0 so that you'll have another -30 to +30 percent window to learn. I'm just guessing that this is how it works. On the PJ-III you can go in and see all the long term learning (adaptive) values to see if you need to adjust the overall map more. It also has an option for setting a fixed pulsewidth at idle for nasty cams or large injectors that might have a problem idling in automatic mode.

Also I see you can go in and adjust you injector pulsewidths directly for RPM and MAP ranges. Have you tried that to get rid of the lean idle?

I sent Cody an email with a link to this thread. Maybe he'll take a look. Even though he's swamped and no longer works for Retrotek/Boss he still takes a sense of ownership for them and tries to help others because he and Bryce were there a long time together and did a lot of the work. Also, Bryce is working on getting a forum set up on the Retrotek site.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old May 3rd, 11, 08:54 PM
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Re: At an Impass

Curious, has anyone done a megasquirt EFI on any of these engines? Would love to see a build thread on them if so.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old May 3rd, 11, 09:02 PM
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Re: At an Impass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corse View Post
Curious, has anyone done a megasquirt EFI on any of these engines? Would love to see a build thread on them if so.
Check out the High Tech for Old Iron section on V8Buick.com.
There's a guy with the handle TheSilverBuick running a couple of them on old rides and is looking into doing another. Here's his thread on doing a MS-2 on a '77 Skylark with 455.
http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=208168
http://v8buick.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55

The Megasquirt manual has some good stuff in it that helped me set up the cold starts on my PJ-III.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old May 6th, 11, 07:34 AM Thread Starter
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Re: At an Impass

Thanks Steiner. That helps. I will play around with it some more to see if I can get it working right. I bought a new regulator, the fuel pressure varys a bunch and I am wondering if it is part of the problem. Part of the problem I am having is a limitation of the TBI systems. They can only go so far with 4 injectors, my HP is near its limit. Going to a MPEFI will help a bunch. I also like the Holley Hp systems. If I cant get this to work well I may sell my Retrotek and buy an HP. When I had the Retrotek on my 454 it ran great. Just to close to the limit with my HP I think.

_______________________________
69 Camaro, Air Ride Suspension,
Procharged HO 454, 700R4, 12 bolt with Yukon axles, 3:73 gears posi, Pypes 2.5" X pipe with Borla XS mufflers. Retrotek Speed EFI, Ridetech suspension.
Rushforth rated X with Toyo tires. MSD 6 ignition.
Wilwood 6 piston Dynalite disc brakes with Hydratech booster.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old May 6th, 11, 05:58 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: At an Impass

You're running a boost referenced regulator, right? -8AN or better lines since the upgrade?

Four big injectors can have a problem idling but you're lean which is odd. Usually they have a hard time with the low pulsewidths required for idle and are rich or unstable instead. However, a rich misfire can show up as lean. The Siemens injectors that come with the PJ-III are good down to 1100ms and my idle pw is around 2200. However, going by my duty cycles at full load they're close to maxed out at my level.

Once you go boosted it requires a whole new calculation for your fuel. Your BSFC number jumps a good bit so an injector that is good for 600hp normally aspirated may only be good for 450 supercharged. Have you done some logs and looked at your duty cycles?

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old May 7th, 11, 06:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: At an Impass

Steiner, I was using the regulator retro sent. just installed a aeromotive A1000-6. it is boost referenced. it idles high, 1000-1100 rpm. i have the idle screws backed off. cant get it to idle down. i noticed gas seeping out from the hat seal. seems to be getting gas, not enough air but the idle is high. when i push the gas from idle it leans then it comes back in range and takes off. another characteristic is when i remove gas to come to a stop it leans out. i have a new rock valley tank with a in tank deatschworks 300 lph pump. using the ems to power the pump. if you send me a pm I will send you a data acquistion run and load. I would greatly appreciate it. One thing to note is when I first put on the procharger last year it ran pretty descent. Then I had fuel pump problems and added a intercooler over the winter. Maybe I should disconnect the Intercooler?

_______________________________
69 Camaro, Air Ride Suspension,
Procharged HO 454, 700R4, 12 bolt with Yukon axles, 3:73 gears posi, Pypes 2.5" X pipe with Borla XS mufflers. Retrotek Speed EFI, Ridetech suspension.
Rushforth rated X with Toyo tires. MSD 6 ignition.
Wilwood 6 piston Dynalite disc brakes with Hydratech booster.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old May 9th, 11, 11:33 AM
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Re: At an Impass

Sell me your throttle body!
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old May 13th, 11, 06:17 AM Thread Starter
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Re: At an Impass

Cody, How about helping me getting it running right?

_______________________________
69 Camaro, Air Ride Suspension,
Procharged HO 454, 700R4, 12 bolt with Yukon axles, 3:73 gears posi, Pypes 2.5" X pipe with Borla XS mufflers. Retrotek Speed EFI, Ridetech suspension.
Rushforth rated X with Toyo tires. MSD 6 ignition.
Wilwood 6 piston Dynalite disc brakes with Hydratech booster.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old May 22nd, 11, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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Re: At an Impass

I thought I would update the thread and say what the outcome is. I believe it was a combination of problems. I ended up removing the Intercooler. The intercooler was cooling the air so much that it increased the density of the air requiring more gas. I think it brought my system out of its normal operating range. After removing it the system was real rich so it had to relearn. I was able to tune out the lean mixture at initial throttle also. Two other things I did that may have contributed. My gas cap is supposed to be vented but it didnt, so I drilled a small hole thru the rivet. In addition the radiator cap is a 16 psi cap but it kept spewing AF out after I would stop. This would happen at 170 degrees. So I bought a 20psi and it contains the pressure at normal ranges. Now the engine is not getting so hot because it is closed loop. Anyhow the retrotek is working. I did learne alot. Next time it will be multiport. Or just go to a LS.

_______________________________
69 Camaro, Air Ride Suspension,
Procharged HO 454, 700R4, 12 bolt with Yukon axles, 3:73 gears posi, Pypes 2.5" X pipe with Borla XS mufflers. Retrotek Speed EFI, Ridetech suspension.
Rushforth rated X with Toyo tires. MSD 6 ignition.
Wilwood 6 piston Dynalite disc brakes with Hydratech booster.
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