Project: Stealth Injection - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 4th, 15, 09:01 AM Thread Starter
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Dave
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 385
Project: Stealth Injection

After riding with a friend who has made the jump to EFI in his Jeep CJ, I decided the benefits were just too significant to ignore and decided to jump in. My car is very stock appearing, so my goal is to keep it that way as much as possible while still getting the best performance possible. I thought it would be helpful to others to document the process and share what I learn. So, here is the before picture of my engine bay:



I have been struggling with carb issues for quite a long time and am on my third Qjet currently. I have had stripped fuel inlets, warped base plates, and worn throttle shafts, and I am just tired of the car being unrelaible. I drive the car in the heat here a lot, and hot starting has been an issue forever and despite all sorts of attempts, the problem persists. I know many will question my choice to do this, but I suggest you drive one of these EFI systems before you judge. The starting is so easy, the throttle response is amazing, and with an in-tank fuel pump, there is no detectable pump noise.

I currently run the stock distributor with a Pertronix igniter II electronic ignition, and I plan to retain that and not have the EFI system manage spark.

And here is what I bought:



I bought the Edelbrock Performer EPS manifold to avoid using a carb converter plate which would have made my stock air cleaner hard to reuse and I wanted to have a discreet location for the coolant temp sensor. My stock temp gauge sensor is in the head and the EFI kit does not recommend using that location for their sensor. Using that location would also require me to lose my stock temp gauge. My plan is to powder coat it chevy orange and to reuse the stock oil fill tube and thermostat housing. The large air cleaner will cover the Edelbrock logo but I will need to change to a 90 degree heater hose fitting which will not appear stock.

I decided on the Edelbrock E-street EFI after tons of research and the recommendation of two friends who have the system. I also liked the option of running a returnless fuel system which eliminates the need for a fuel regulator under the hood.

I also purchased the Spectra Premium EFI fuel tank from Rock auto:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...nid=474&jpid=0

It appears to be a very quality tank and the recent reviews of the redesigned baffle system are very positive. The price is just too hard to pass up and it will appear totally stock.

I purchased everything except the tank from Amazon and the pricing was much better than the normal speed shop vendors (Jegs, Summit, etc.) All in, including fuel line, fuel filter, fittings, gaskets, stud kit, fuel pump block off plate, and O2 bung clamp is just about $2,500. A lot of money, but not nearly what this would have cost a few years ago.

Most everything arrived, and I have started disassembly. I am currently sandblasting and coating a bunch of brackets and such and started the powder coating of the manifold. With the long weekend, I hope to make a bunch of progress and will update this thread as I go. Wish me luck!

Dave

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68RS/SS Convertible L48 (350/295 Powerglide)

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post #2 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 4th, 15, 10:08 AM
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

Subscribed, good luck!
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post #3 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 6th, 15, 12:04 PM Thread Starter
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Dave
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Frisco, TX
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

Made good progress so far. Disassembled the front of the engine and pulled the intake. While I had access, I touched up the paint on the front of the block.



Spent much of the day sandblasting and powder coating all the parts I removed:


Here is the Performer manifold after powder coat:



Also installed the Spectra fuel tank. Very nice unit with good fittings and OEM style wiring. I ran the fuel line by tie-wrapping it to the existing hard line. I will go back with better clamps after all hose lengths are finalized. Now time to carefully re-install the parts I removed and then move on to the actual EFI install.

Dave

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68RS/SS Convertible L48 (350/295 Powerglide)

Last edited by daverichard; Mar 1st, 18 at 11:32 AM.
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post #4 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 15, 06:49 PM Thread Starter
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Dave
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

Long day fixing problems. Here is how it looks now:



Manifold swap went with no issues and got all the accessories remounted as well as the water pump and fan. First problem was the stock water outlet interfered with the coolant temp sensor location in the manifold. Kind of a dumb location for the bung in my opinion, but only option was to go with a swivel housing with a steeper hose angle. The chrome thing looks horrible on top the engine, but I will camouflage it later by bead blasting and power coating it. Next problem is the stock upper radiator hose would not reach the new water outlet. Back to the parts store to find a hose that would work. After about 30 mins trying various hoses we found on that looked like I could make it work.

The hose worked. I have no idea what application the hose actually was for, but I was able to cut some off both ends and it fit well. Next problem was the heater hose nipple needed a 90 bend to fit my hoses. Back to the parts store for that, and I need to powder coat that later since it is shiny as well.

Mounted the throttle body, and all the linkages lined up well. There was a little interference with the vacuum distribution fitting on the manifold and the throttle body which I solved by turning it a bit. This then cause the metal vacuum tube that runs to the brake booster hose to not fit. That took some hammering and bending to resolve.

Really just need to wire it all up and program the injection system, but still have not tried the stock air cleaner for clearance. I am worried it might interfere with the hood. Also need to mount the O2 bung, but I have stock exhaust manifolds, so should have no trouble fining a place to mount in the exhaust piping.

We ran out of time this weekend, so probably will sit for a week or so.

Dave

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68RS/SS Convertible L48 (350/295 Powerglide)

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post #5 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 15, 04:31 PM Thread Starter
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Dave
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

Ok, O2 bung installed, wiring completed, programing complete. Twisted the key and it started almost immeadiately. Took some time to get the idle where I wanted it and to verify the timing, but a totally uneventful fire-up. Amazing how consistent the idle is and how quickly the engine fires up. Here are a couple pictures with the original air cleaner back on. At first glance, you see nothing other than a few more black wires than normal.




I drove the car around the neighborhood to let it learn, and it worked very well. There were some rough spots initially, but if I just kept the throttle still, the system would learn and it would smooth right out. The throttle response is also great right out of the box and I thought I was done. Next I took it on the highway, and quickly found a problem. Once I get over about 3000 RPM's, the engine begins to sputter and the car will not go about about 70 mph. The fuel pressure fluctuates wildly but the AFR ratio is perfect, so not a learning problem.

After a couple hours on the support line with Edelbrock and Spectra Premium (Makes tank and pump), the recommendation was to convert to a return-style fuel system. The feeling is that the in-tank pump is not responding well to the modulating signal from the Edelbrock ECU.

The plan is to use a bypass style fuel filter/regulator familiar to anyone who has done an LS swap.



This is a simple device that produces a constant 58 lbs of fuel pressure and circulates fuel right back into the tank. It can be located on the frame rail right by the tank so all you need is about a foot of return hose.

So, the parts I need are ordered and should be here before next weekend. Once here, should be a pretty quick install.

Dave

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68RS/SS Convertible L48 (350/295 Powerglide)

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post #6 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 21st, 15, 12:53 PM
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Mark
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

Great write-up Dave. I also tried to keep my car as stock looking as possible when I put a FAST system on a couple years ago. I never did find a good spot to hide the fuel pressure regulator, and you'll probably discover you'll need to upgrade the charging system to handle the increased load on the electrical system - I'm still using the stock 55 amp alternator, and it isn't big enough....and I don't have AC.

69 RS, Hugger orange/black, Deluxe interior, Sony AM/FM/XM/CD, PS & PB. 355, forged pistons, Eagle rods, balanced, Iron Eagles, 9.4:1 CR, .038 quench, XR270HR Cam, Z28 intake, FAST-EZ EFI 2.0, Thorley Tri-Ys, TCI 700R4, 2400 stall, 3.42 posi
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post #7 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 21st, 15, 01:47 PM
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

So for those that have done this upgrade, what kind of seat of the pants performance improvements are you seeing?

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post #8 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 21st, 15, 02:29 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

You just need a turbine style in tank pump. Bosch and Walbro make several that would probably be a direct swap with the one that came with your Spectra tank so you can keep the in tank setup.

Here's one to give you an idea what they look like.
http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-69544-Original-Equipment-Replacement/dp/B000BZL9J0
http://racetronix.com/press-release/...ch-fuel-pumps/

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #9 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 22nd, 15, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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Dave
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

Mark,

I am very worried about the alternator. Mine is 61 amps and the recommendation is for 100 if I have A/C. I can't seem to find a replacement 100 amp unit that isn't chrome. Does anyone make a stock looking unit??

Steiner,

I agree with you that upgrading the pump is likely the easiest route, but Edelbrock only supports a returnless system if you use their pump. They are adamant that the pump must state clearly that it supports PWM for use with their returnless system, and most pump vendors don't want to do that. I must admit that their support is really solid. They spent an hour on the phone with me, and agreed to provide me the harness needed to convert to a return-style system for free. They also were very open that their system works best in return-style mode and they are modifying the instructions to more firmly recommend this approach. The tank/pump vendor has been great too and they are adding a tech bulletin about the recommendation for using return-style approach like I am going with to anyone using the Edelbrock system.

By the way, PWM is pulse width modulation and it is the method Edelbrock uses to control fuel pressure in their returnees configuration. The ECU rapidly cycles power to the pump to keep the pressure constant. Many pumps do not respond well to this approach. In return mode, the ECU energizes the pump constantly and it relies on a fixed pressure regulator to deliver a constant 58 lbs to the injector rail. The excess fuel is returned to the tank which keeps the pump running cooler and eliminates the strain the pulsing puts on the mechanics of the pump. The pump manufacturer prefers this for long term durability and Edelbrock likes it because it is easier to diagnose problems.

Dave

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post #10 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 22nd, 15, 09:29 AM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

Yes, I know what PWM is and turbine pumps are required for the setup, Spectra probably supplies a gerotor style.....you can use a turbine pump in either type system but gerotor is suited only for return style. Ford has been doing PWM since 1999 and a lot more OEM's started after that. FAST, MSD, and Aeromotive offer kits to do an in tank returnless but already having the Spectra kit means you're set up to just swap the pump out. As mentioned Bosch makes a good turbine pump that people use with their returnless systems.....the controllers all work pretty much the same way with a solid state relay. Retrotek was one of the first in the EFI aftermarket to offer a returnless controller and they don't make very good stuff but people say the Bosch turbine pumps work good with them.

Also I'm not sure what your line setup is but you typically cannot run hard line for the high pressure side on a returnless PWM system because it will "water hammer", some places actually offer a dampener to help with that. I could've done returnless on mine but knew that it was very limited in how much power it could support and feel like the aftermarket mainly provides it for the same reason they offer "hands off" non-tunable self learning EFI kits....to keep from scaring off potential customers.

That said, a return system in my mind is better and I'm not trying to sway you to go returnless, just offering a solution to what you have now.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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Last edited by Steiner; Sep 22nd, 15 at 09:42 AM.
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post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 22nd, 15, 09:53 AM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

BTW, did Edelbrock say their system is designed to run at 58psi or do their algorithms use fuel pressure feedback to offset fueling based on the factory installed injectors?

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 22nd, 15, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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Dave
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

In returnless mode, Edelbrock uses PWM to maintain as close to 50psi as possible. In return-style it expects 58psi at all times from the regulator. Not sure why, there is a difference between the two.

Dave

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68RS/SS Convertible L48 (350/295 Powerglide)
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post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 22nd, 15, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Dave
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

Steiner,

I am running rubber hose. My plan is to locate the filter/regulator on the frame rail above the rear axle. I will run a short hose from the bypass port on it back to the return on the tank. I have an inline filter there right now, so this way I can keep all my expensive Russell twist-lok hose and just add a foot of hose back to the tank. So just one hose running to the front of the car, and no regulator under the hood to hide. Everything should be here by Friday, and the install should be very quick. Thank you for your help.

Dave

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68RS/SS Convertible L48 (350/295 Powerglide)
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post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 22nd, 15, 02:32 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

Should work pretty good, and you've already got a sender set up for return. I butchered one before just putting a bulkhead fitting in the side. I'm eventually going to get a Tanks Inc setup and go in-tank. Switching to multiport next year and maybe doing new pistons/cam down the line for some intercooled boost....probably will wait until that happens.

What did you wind up doing for venting? I've got a charcoal can in the trunk connected to a vent tube in the filler neck and then going back out with a little paper filter on it.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old Sep 22nd, 15, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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Dave
 
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Re: Project: Stealth Injection

Good question on the vent. The spectra guys told me I was fine since the factory gas cap is vented. Are you telling me otherwise?

Dave

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68RS/SS Convertible L48 (350/295 Powerglide)
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