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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well boys, It's officially over!! I have figured out my problem on the 4 speed hole on my 69 being off... Rick's Camaro's has been lookinginto this problem for me, AND it seems that a 3 speed saginaw car has the shifter hole 1 and 1/2 inches Back from the second rib(you know what I mean)to the opening, and the 4 speed cars have the opening at THREE inches from the second rib.
Welll, first , I've been had on my original z-28. I called the guy I bought the car from, and he admitted that he had wrecked the original body beyond fixing, and bought the car I have now as the replacement. He took every nut and bolt off of the old car, and changed the vin plates and everything. Took me back behind his house and showed me the carcass of the dead z-28. Still got the car less than the parts, sooooo, do I have a z-28 or not?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
By the way, I took the measurement on the opening, went back 1 and 1/2 inches back and made the hole bigger, took the piece and welded the cut out piece in the front of the old hole and PRESTO!!! Shifter hole in the right spot...
 

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Did he change the hidden VIN stamped under the cowl panel?
Did he use the correct rivets on the VIN tag?
If he didn't use the correct rivets, and the car is checked, the officials will use the second vin under the cowl as the official VIN.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page
First Gen Suspension Page
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer
 

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I would say you have a Z-28 thats been rebodied.I don't think its such a bad thing but others might dissagree.How was it described when he sold it to you?Why didn't he tell you before you bought it?I'm surprised he admitted it to you.
 

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Ouch, You have a problem there. It is against federal and state law to switch the VIN tags on a vehicle. In most states, it's a felony. There are two confidential VIN's on the 69. One is on the cowl under the cowl panel on the right side and the other is under the blower motor/heater core cover on the firewall. The con number is a derivative of the full VIN and contains 8 numbers. The last five are the build sequence and must match the last five on the dash. I sure hope the previous owner intends to give you back some of your money because you don't have a genuine Z28. Good Luck

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69 SS, 350, 4 Speed
75 400, 4 Speed
93 Z28, 6 Speed
 

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Are you sure that a 1969 Camaro has the VIN derivative under the blower motor/heater core cover on the firewall?? I thought the only place a VIN derivative was stamped was on the top of the cowl, passenger side, which can be seen thru the vent on the cowl/wiper panel. My car is totally stripped to the shell and has no VIN stamped by blower motor area. LA car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I'll try to answer all questions via my explanation....

Number 1. I got the whole car plus parts (it was completely disasembled when I got the car-to the last nut and bolt)for 5000.00, it came with about 4500 worth of N.O.S. parts alone, right motor, trans with busted tail piece, rear end, brakes, brackets, you name it, it was there. some stuff missing, figure that the original car owner changed out the shifter, etc.

2. the body I got with the deal has no rust to speak of-the original car was a yankee car (no offense) and a rust bucket.

3. Was I pissed about the whole deal? Yea for about 10 minutes...the guy KEPT MY MONEY READILY AVAILABLE TO REFUND IT BACK TO ME. I told the dude that I had figured out the deal on the car, he came over and looked it over and offered me 10K over what I had paid him for the car, and it isn't finished. I turned him down, of course.

4. My question is this, If I took the original body, crushed rust bucket that it is, took this excellent body and cut every panel out and rewelded it around the original vin numbers, do I still have a rebodied car? What would be the difference and the smarts in doing that Vs. cutting the Vin tags and attaching them to a better body? I know that some of you are going to shout the legal aspects, but when they came down the line at time of assembly where they christened or did virgins annoint them as holy? I don't think so. Comments?

5. Do I feel that I have an original Z-28? Every piece and part of the car is original, front pieces, suspension, brakes, shifter, all of the guages, steering wheel, seats , exaust, motor , trans, rear end, gas tank, alternator and on and on. I dont have a 68 or a 67 built to look like a 69. It is a 69 z-28. Let the shouts begin!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Lets remember that it's I that this has happened to. I am grateful to this site and the input from it. If I sell this car I will explaine the deal with the vin and the wrecked car , etc. This has probably been debated a couple hundred times on this and numerous site like it (but not as good as). Fella's, lets debate this fairly and in good faith, I'm not pissed any more, I do hate people rippin off other folks, but remember, We have all learned something here- that saginaw cars have the cut out hole 1 and 1/2 inches closer to the second rib than the 4 speed cars do!! Another way to tell if a car is a fake or not... Agreed? Some thing good has come of all of this and thank you Ricks Camaro's for going to the trouble and time to take an original car, peel back the carpet and do measurements for me!!!
 

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This is the downside to the automotive hobby. In your eyes you have a Z/28 and for all logical reasons you do. Logic doesn't play to the purist in the hobby. If you are honest at the time of sale, perspective buyers are going to hold up a cross and be wearing garlic around their necks as they pass by you. Well, unless you sell it at a clone or non Z price. If you don't tell the story behind the car and it's done well, you'll get top dollar. Then you have to live with the fact that maybe there will be another little something (much like how you found out) that gives it away and the new owner comes after you.

What happened to the vin and cowl tags from the doner car? (This is way out there, but so are so many of the real stories I've heard) What if they end up in the hands of a chop shop or one of the friends of the guy that sold you the car (someone with less than honesty on his mind). They could build a beater with your cars real tags, have it titled and report it stolen. The finger gets pointed at your car (hidden vin or some other tell tail you don't know about) and guess who looses?

I'm not saying all this to make you feel like you got screwed or that you can't have a cool car from all this. When I read your words I sense you are looking for afermation that you have a Z/28 not a 6cyl transplanted with Z parts. At this point it's how you feel not me or the others.

If it were mine I would not try to make a correct restored Z out of it! At the price you paid for it I'd be thinking Pro-Touring Z/28; EFI-302ci, 6speed, near stock interior and big wheels with Z rated 40 series tires... Trick out the suspension and maybe build your own version of the Z/28. Leave the badges and stripes... There were more than 20,000 Z's in '69, the world isn't going to miss one more. You can actually end up with a bas *** car with a Z heart!! If it's your only Camaro, you'll have more fun too!!

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...Dennis
"The '69, the '96 & the club"
 

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Hell Yes!
That’s what I am shooting for. Mine was a 6, but now a 425Hp V8, and still rising. Almost have the VA installed. Anyway, I personally don’t care much for the stock cars, I do Respect anyone who does, and do respect the heritage. I think they are the best muscle car ever made, but you can make them so much sweeter. When you take the bicycle tires off, and the flying saucer rims. Trim. Etc. ad 2 more gears, 200 more Horsepower, etc. etc. anyway I hope that helps. I am sorry to hear your plans changed so much. You have so many parts, if you still need that authentic feeling, you might want to just find z28 in a field somewhere, and begin.

-John
 

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There are prisons for guys like the one who sold you the car. I think you handled it very well. My hats off to you. I am not a purist by any means. I can't understand why some people go to extremes to duplicate the errors the factory made and then trailer the cars to shows. They are missing out on the real fun of the hobby. I've always felt you could build a lot nicer car than GM did with their 40 year old technology and take a lot more pride in doing it yourself. I don't have much time to listen to a guy at a show when I discover he didn't do any of the work himself. I appreciate their efforts for restoring and preserving history, but they really can't take pride in the machine because they had nothing to do with it's construction. I do respect the guy that does the frame off, tries to do what he can himself, contracts out what he can't handle and learns a great deal along the way. Also for guys that buy there cars done, they're never done because we all make changes to suit ourselves, and learns everything he can about it and modifies it to suit his tastes. Those are the guys I want to talk to and I think the majority of fellas and gals on this site are of this type of hobbyist.

That said you got a great deal on a very nice 69 Camaro. Is it a Z? No. But to me it's a lot closer to one than a car that came off the assembly line wearing the badges, but now has a 350 engine or an auto trans installed because the "owner was tired of shifting". Unless its an original car with a 302 to me it's no longer a Z, I walk away from these cars all the time at shows. I've got no interest in them, just my opinion. If you want to modify a car start with a base model, like this guy did, just leave the Vin tag alone. Enjoy your car, because it sounds like a very nice street car that many of use would love to own and drive. The second part is the most important....DRIVE the car. I understand a car can be too nice to drive, but why own it? Pointing at it and saying there's my car as it sits day after day is not where the pleasures at for most people.

I would be concerned about where the other VIN tag went, if this guy built one bogus car, he may build another with your VIN tag on it.

Good luck,
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I dragged the hunk of junk to my house....
my wife(who allows for my hobby) asked what in the heck was doing dragging that garbage scowl to her house. I put it behind my garage.
DJD, this is obviously your site, but cut us all some slack! If I took the good body and welded all of the non crushed rusted parts to the original body, would I then have a "real" z-28? the general tone of your responce is one of disdane and dissention. I would not sell the car as an original as it now stands, but could I do it if I spend 12000 fixing the carcass all of the parts came into the world on?
 

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...gawa, This site is not mine as you suggest!! When I post it's as DjD not as an administrator. I promise you when I put on the admin hat you'll know it!

You are taking my posting totally wrong... The only thing I said that might even upset you is the fact that you are looking for afermation that you bought a real Z/28. That's a perfectly normal thing that can happen under the circumstances!!

If what I posted bothers you it should, this poop happens all the time and it might be me instead of you the next time. I'm sympethetic to you for being deceived but my opinion is make sure the deception stops in it's tracks. I care what you do with your car but I'll defend you to do as you wish with it. I also care what happens to others and that should be obvious in that I point out how things can snowball on you and you could be left without a car or the cash you've put into it! There was not an ounce of intent to offend you when I wrote what I did. It seems to have done just that so for that I apologize. If having a numbers matching correct Z/28 is what you are all about with your car so be it.

I stand by what I said when it's time to sell that car. Tell your story and a purist won't touch it, keep your mouth shut and get top dollar, unless you don't know your camaros as well as you think and miss something obvious!!

I could go back and take 1 or 2 sentences from all the other replys here and it would be far harsher but the same thing I have been saying.

I truly am sorry you fell in the poop and just tried to offer a a way out with suggesting a pro-touring Z/28... Ever read any of the car guy mags? Ever notice the vettes that get spotlighted? Funny most writers start out saying "Takes big ones to hotrod an old classic like this and purists will be rolling over in their graves but this ones done right"!! You have the perfect oppertunity guy (what is your name?) to do the same!! But again like I said it's your car!!! It's your call!!!

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...Dennis
"The '69, the '96 & the club"
 

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I was at Hot August Nights last weekend and went to the swap meet where I saw an advertised '69 Z/28 for sale for 28K. The seller stated (in writing) that the car was the 459th car built in LA. He wrote the casting date of the motor and assembly dates of which both were, according to him July of '69 or '68. Upon first look it had the wrong intake and no smog equipment, no deep groove pulleys and a cowl induction hood and air cleaner. (no solenoid, relay or throttle arm switch) Upon further investigation it had 5 leafsprings and a 5/16" fuel line. Full length rear spoiler. It did have power front disc brakes and the correct shifter. It had deluxe interior with non-guage console and no dash tach. Seemed odd for a deluxe interior car. Anyway my best quess is it was originally a small block SS car. Problem is I don't believe the owner knows he doesn't have an authentic Z. This could be a potential problem should someone buy this car before authenticating it. It is clearly advertised as a Z/28 but there is some confusion regarding the casting dates and build dates in that he isn't sure if the casting date on the block is '68 or '69. I think I have talked to the owner as the car lives about 15 miles from me and if so I'm pretty sure he thinks it's a real car. This is a good example of a potentially serious problem should someone buy this car based on the owners (written) statements and then later discover the truth.

John
 

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...gawa,
In the eyes of the law, you don't have a Z/28.
In the eyes of the law, you have to use the vin the car came with from GM.
If you had all the parts transfered from the "good" car to the origonal car, it would be worth more to a collector that values an orional car.
Either way, your car is worth way less than an origonal Z/28 that has had no major body restoration.

I think the body replacement has been done a lot with some of the Shelby Mustangs. They are quite valuable, and if they get bad enough to replace the whole body, the owner has supposedly disclosed that it was rebodied at time of purchase. Usually no one else is told of it.

It's a slippery slope to go down. Suppose you sell the car to a guy and he sells it to a buyer at a very high price and "forgets" to tell about the car's history. The owner calls you, to get more info on the history of the car. What will you say? Will you get sued or have the cops after you for switching the VIN?
Just thinking of what might happen.
I've got a buddy who went through heck over his vin that was switched. They wanted to impound the car and he would have to pay for it's storage. They wound up putting a "California" vin tag installed by the Highway patroll. They were so sick of the VIN mess, the fun of owning the car was gone...
Why not ask the local police about their view on it?
To me, I wouldn't pay a lot for origonality. I don't like Camaros completely stock anyway. I like to look at an origonal Camaros an can appreciate them, but I don't want to own one.
I wouldn't have a problem owning a Z/28 clone, but I wouldn't want a Camaro with clouded or illegal title.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page
First Gen Suspension Page
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer



[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 08-12-2002).]
 

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Off the subject a little... Onemorecamaro (John), one of your statements about the car you saw for sale bothered me..."It had deluxe interior with non-guage console and no dash tach. Seemed odd for a deluxe interior car." If it is an early built Z/28 it would not require a tach let alone the special instrumentation package and having deluxe interior has absolutely nothing to do with that option. I don't know this car and agree it sounds phoney but I have heard this statement before and it bothers me. I think we have become acustomed to seeing so many options added to 1st gen Camaros (myself included) we think that just because it has one option it seems phoney it doesn't have more. Not attacking you John as you have beautiful cars and are very knowledable about them (as well as a very nice guy) but I just felt like getting up on a soap box tonight. By the way my early LA RSZ that I found in a barn and is fully documented has deluxe interior, no gauges and no spoilers. Thanks for listening to me vent. Dana

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1969 RS-Z/28: Matching #'s DZ302 & M20, 3.73, Tuxedo Black, Deluxe Black Interior, Factory Tach, Clock and Console Gauges, PS, Rear Defrost, AM/FM, Spoilers, ZL2 Special Ducted Hood. Pic

2002 SS: 35th Anniversary coupe, 6 spd, all GM options plus additional SLP options: 345 hp package, floor and rear hatch mats.

'69 RS-Z/28, 58K miles, all numbers match, POP & Build Sheet, in a barn since 1975. Currently starting restoration. Pic
 

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Oh...and the 459th car built in LA or Norwood would be way to early to have been able to have a cowl hood. So it was obviously added and would have no wiring/solenoid unless it was added as well. Don't write it off as a fake. I have seen lots of early LA cars that were real Z's but were written off as fakes because of not having spoilers, cowl hood and/or gauges. The 5-leaf and fuel line do seem suspicious though.
 
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