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6 months later - New NEW components - STILL soft brakes.... ???

14K views 165 replies 23 participants last post by  Arkangel77 
#1 ·
SO - I have bin fighting soft peddle for over 6 months (longer really).
New POL hydro boost system with Willwood master.
ALL brake lines are NEW (except the long hard line going from the prop valve to the rear end).
Front lines are steel braided and rear are new rubber.

I have posted about this in the past but some components have bin changed.
Factory front disk - Rear is aftermarket disk upgrade. The rear have bin properly adjusted.

I don't understand why I still have a soft peddle.....
Only things I can think of is #1 I got a bad new MC from Willwood.
OR #2 There is some Bermuda Triangle crap going on with that Old Hard-line that runs down the frame rail?

I think my next step is to change that Old long Hard-line and maybe upgrade the rear rubber lines to steel braided?

What I am asking is what do you guys think? ANY ideas or input on this deal are welcome.
Thanks, Cory C
 
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#2 ·
SO - I have bin fighting soft peddle for over 6 months (longer really).
New POL hydro boost system with Willwood master.
ALL brake lines are NEW (except the long hard line going from the prop valve to the rear end).
Front lines are steel braided and rear are new rubber.

I have posted about this in the past but some components have bin changed.
Factory front disk - Rear is aftermarket disk upgrade. The rear have bin properly adjusted.

I don't understand why I still have a soft peddle.....
Only things I can think of is #1 I got a bad new MC from Willwood.
OR #2 There is some Bermuda Triangle crap going on with that Old Hard-line that runs down the frame rail?

I think my next step is to change that Old long Hard-line and maybe upgrade the rear rubber lines to steel braided?

What I am asking is what do you guys think? ANY ideas or input on this deal are welcome.
Thanks, Cory C
What rear calipers are you using?
 
#5 ·
Air in system or leak
well Air but where and or how? I have honestly bled over 3 liters threw these lines. I mean - bleeding brakes is not that hard... I am just supper stumped

If it was a leak - I would see it and I have checked every joint repeatedly.
 
#12 · (Edited)
yes - I have actually did this a few times and this is the 2nd MC that had still not had a Hard peddle. Its gets stiffer at the end of the stroke

The long hard line is just a pipe. If it's not leaking, replacing it will just make you have to bleed the entire system again. It's either in the calipers " very problematic" , or the master cylinder. Those calipers were problematic from the assembly line.
I 100% agree with the Line being a Pipe - I just willing to try anything... Heck - maybe I need to replace the new calipers with more new calipers??? They have bin adjusted - But I don't know what else to do
 
#11 ·
The long hard line is just a pipe. If it's not leaking, replacing it will just make you have to bleed the entire system again. It's either in the calipers " very problematic" , or the master cylinder. Those calipers were problematic from the assembly line.
 
#13 ·
UPDATE Just spoke with Wilwood tech. They are thinking it Might be a volume issue because of my Front Calipers? I am going to check that and get back with them on Monday. At least its something to look into, At this point I am lost so this is something anyways
 
#20 ·
I experienced an issue when vacuum bleeding factory 4 piston front calipers.
The vacuum caused the pistons to retract on the opposite side caliper to the one I was trying to bleed. Apparently when retracted, vacuum can pull air past the piston o-rings on these calipers.
 
#21 ·
I experienced an issue when vacuum bleeding factory 4 piston front calipers.
The vacuum caused the pistons to retract on the opposite side caliper to the one I was trying to bleed. Apparently when retracted, vacuum can pull air past the piston o-rings on these calipers.
That is something to keep an eye out for. I don't think my bleeder kit develops enough suction to see that issue but maybe? However I did fallow the Vacuum bleed up with old schools peddle bleeding.

I checked my front calipers last night and they are the single 3" piston type. We will see what the Wilwood folks say about that when I call them tomorrow
 
#28 ·
So - Little update about this ongoing issue. After a few conversations with the Wilwood guys I have two things I need to check.

Even though POL should have done this when they assembled the system. I need to check for the correct clearance between the Hydro boost piston rod and the Master. The Wilwood guys say that I need 1/8" gap or clearance between the rods/bullet that push the piston in the Master. They say without that the master will never reset and I wont get a stiff peddle.

The other thing I need to check is for something called a "Low Drag" caliper. There is some Info online about them. But from what I understand If you have Low Drag calipers you need a "Quick Takeup" Master. If you use low drag calipers with a regular Master you will see the exact issue I am having. The Front calipers were on the car when I got it so I have no idea what they are. Again there is info on how to check these online.
Here is some Info on these. Test for low drag calipers

ALSO - The guys at Wilwood did the math. I do have single 3" piston calipers up front and single 2" piston calipers in the back. However they say there Master should move enough volume to handle that no problems.
 
#29 ·
More testing today. I checked the clearance on those piston rods. 1/8" is .125 and as best I can tell i am about .123. Modeling clay is not that Precise a measuring device. It would seem that I am good there.

I also checked 1 of the front calipers and it dose not seem to be a Low Drag caliper. No excessive clearance after pressing and releasing the peddle. Best I could tell was around .004 or less between the pad and the rotor. I need to go back tomorrow and check the other side Just in case.

However - I checked both the back calipers and one looks great - tight clearances BUT the other is not good. After you apply the brakes and release the pads open up to where there is a .015 gap. Not sure if this is everything but from what I have read this is a part of the issue.

If anyone has Any Idea about this - Please throw it out there! More testing and calls to Wilwood tomorrow. Will let y'all know how I make out.
 
#30 ·
I'll throw in this possibility. You're saying "soft" pedal not a fading pedal. What kind of brake fluid are you using? If it's silicone fluid, you can definitely have a soft pedal. Using DOT brake fluid can absolutely remedy that issue. Hope this helps.
 
#31 ·
I was previously using DOT 3 and I have just changed to DOT4. I get a peddle at the end of the travel and thats where the calipers seem to grab. It comes in real LOW in the peddle travel. It never gets ROCK hard but imagin no resistance and then resistance at the end. If all else fails I will for sure look into this! Thank you. CDC
 
#37 ·
I'm a DOT 5 user too. I use it in my Z, and used it in our old Bush cars for years. When I mentioned putting it in my car years ago, most on here basically said I was stupid. I may be stupid, but not for using DOT 5.
 
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#39 ·
Some info on DOT 3 and Dot 5 just in case to clear up any one's questions.
:
DOT3 Glycol brake fluid has a dry boiling point of 205 degrees Celsius. The wet boiling point is 140 degrees Celsius.
DOT4 Glycol brake fluid has a dry boiling point of 230 degrees Celsius and a wet boiling point of 155 degrees Celsius.
DOT5 Silicone-based brake fluid has a dry boiling point of 260 degrees Celsius and a wet boiling point of 180 degrees Celsius.

The advantage of the silicon based DOT5 fluid is that it absorbs no moisture whatsoever, unlike the glycol-based fluids. Because it is also chemically inert it won't react with other chemicals in your braking system, nor will it even react to your car's paint which the glycol-based fluids will. For that reason,DOT5 fluid is also preferred for vintage and antique cars that don't get driven around a lot. It can be left to sit in the system arguably for the life of the car without causing any problems.

Price & Compatibility are its cons. Mixing of fluids can cause brake failure.

I am using DOT 5 in a completely new disc brake system in my 68 Camaro. The Dot 5 bottle will remain in the Camaro away from my other vehicles.
 
#40 ·
Some info on DOT 3 and Dot 5 just in case to clear up any one's questions.
:
DOT3 Glycol brake fluid has a dry boiling point of 205 degrees Celsius. The wet boiling point is 140 degrees Celsius.
DOT4 Glycol brake fluid has a dry boiling point of 230 degrees Celsius and a wet boiling point of 155 degrees Celsius.
DOT5 Silicone-based brake fluid has a dry boiling point of 260 degrees Celsius and a wet boiling point of 180 degrees Celsius.

The advantage of the silicon based DOT5 fluid is that it absorbs no moisture whatsoever, unlike the glycol-based fluids. Because it is also chemically inert it won't react with other chemicals in your braking system, nor will it even react to your car's paint which the glycol-based fluids will. For that reason,DOT5 fluid is also preferred for vintage and antique cars that don't get driven around a lot. It can be left to sit in the system arguably for the life of the car without causing any problems.

Price & Compatibility are its cons. Mixing of fluids can cause brake failure.

I am using DOT 5 in a completely new disc brake system in my 68 Camaro. The Dot 5 bottle will remain in the Camaro away from my other vehicles.
That is good information. I will be honest I did zero research about brake fluid when I installed my brake system. If I had I would have used DOT5. I will switch over when I upgrade my brake system this winter.
 
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#41 ·
Just FYI,
on every performance brake setup instructions, this is on Wilwoods site. "NOTE: Silicone DOT 5 brake fluid is NOT recommended for racing or performance driving."

Also
Use better fluid if you need a higher boiling point.
Hi-Temp° 570 Racing Brake Fluid has a minimum 570° F. dry boiling point 299 C
Hi-Temp 600 Plus Racing Brake Fluid conforms to, and exceeds U.S. specification FMVSS No. 116 DOT 4. Typical dry boiling point: 594° F (312° C

Or if you've got a car you just like to park on the grass, or don't really use much,
Wilwood FIVE is a highly refined silicone brake fluid, formulated to preserve the looks and reliability on classic vehicles and show cars, NOT recommended for racing or performance driving.

I don't know why Silicone is not recommended for performance driving, maybe viscosity, too thick to move fast ? idk.
 
#43 ·
I guess if you drive your Camaro several times a week then DOT 3 is great. DOT 3 breaks down with moisture in it, along with damaging brake components, if not driven frequently to build heat in the fluid. And you still have to change DOT 3 every 3 - 5 years if you take care of routine maintenance. Of course nobody changes the brake fluid until they lose a brake line or component.

I don't plan to drive my Camaro but once a week, so DOT 5 is better by not attracting moisture. Also better for the brake lines and components without the moisture in the system. Probably needs changing 5 - 8 years (rough guess).
 
#46 ·
If you have DOT3 (IMHO the right one) and you feel you "need" DOT5.....better make dam sure you flush every drop of DOT3 out of the system as 3 & 5 DO NOT mix. Also confirm your brake components are "compatible" with DOT5 as some seals (calipers/cylinders) are not

IMHO brake bleed every 3 years (read flush) is SOP maintenance using DOT3. YMMV
 
#47 ·
Seeing as so called "experts" here would rather have a pissing match than care to elaoborate, here's some info from a site who's members actually help each other.......

"So what about DOT 5 brake fluid?

DOT 5 brake fluid (not to be confused with DOT 5.1) is fundamentally different than the rest of the DOT fluid range in that it is silicone based brake fluid.

It was originally introduced to give a higher boiling temperature over glycol-based DOT 4 brake fluid. Purple in colour and sometimes referred to as 'synthetic brake fluid', DOT 5 is not compatible with any of the glycol-ether based DOT fluids that we've been focusing our attention on so far.

Although tests have been carried out by the various hydraulic mountain bike brake manufacturers, DOT 5 has so far not proven itself to be a better alternative to glycol-ether based fluids used in hydraulic mountain bike brakes today.

It is also more compressible than the other DOT brake fluids which can lead to a sluggish or spongy brake lever (or pedal) feel, and therefore requires special design considerations when used in brake systems.

Furthermore DOT 5 is hydrophobic and does not absorb water from the atmosphere like regular DOT brake fluid will.

So what is it good for?

Due to its hydrophobic properties it has a very long life-span meaning low maintenance and fewer fluid changes. It is also kinder to paintwork unlike corrosive glycol-ether based DOT fluids.

A good example of its use is in military vehicles which can be stored for long periods of time but need to be ready to be used at a moments notice. It is also favoured by some owners of classic cars for vehicles which may also rarely be used on the roads."


So with that being said, your spongy pedal claim does hold merit.
Your welcome ;)
 
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