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Discussion Starter #1
OK, here is the question. Can I put a 69 Big block with the long water pump and standard 7 blade fan and fan clutch in a 68 car? Where is the differance between the 68 and 69 cars that there was a requirement to have different water pumps? Is the sub frame different? The location of motor mounts? Or the core support?

Has anyone put all 69 big block stuff in a 68 with a 4 core radiator?

THANKS for any help
Mark
[email protected]

PS reason for the question is that I have installed Vintage Air and in traffic there is no way to keep the car cool with a flex fan and I have been told a clutch fan will solve my problems.
 

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They did not change the engine location, but all the engine mounts and frame brackets were changed. The subframe etc. were not changed. They changed quite a bit of stuff in '69. I would add a pusher fan with an on and off switch.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
http://www.rickscamaros.com/product.asp?pf_id=CM-2&dept_id=3524

Here is a page from Ricks First Gen that helps to confuse things more. The frame motor mounts for 67 and 68 are different than 69 but the trans crossmember is the same. I was thinking that the engine may be in a different location from the 68 to the 69 but not sure. Mine sure looks like I can not get a clutch fan in there but I have not attempted it yet. I have 68 engine mounts but everything on the front of the engine is 69 and the flex fan is only 3/4 " from the radiator.
Anybody know for sure if ther is some reason that I can not put a clutch fan in a 68 car with long water pump?
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Discussion Starter #5
I have a pusher fan and it comes on with the AC. It was 90 deg here yesterday and I drove the car about 20 miles. For the most part not stop and go, but some traffic. It went to 250 and puked water out big time. With no AC it will run 180 all day. The flex fan and the pusher together just do not seem to be enough
 

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Dynaflash, I decided to put the answer to your PM for all to see.

Hello, it they put that combo in a '69 you should be able to do it in a '68. The problems you will encounter by doing this, are :

1) If you switch to a long water pump you will have to move your alternator to the passenger side, and the a/c compressor (if equipped) to the drivers side.

2) you must change all of your pulleys and accessory brackets to the long water pump style. Short water pump and long water pump have ALL different pulleys and brackets ! Not just one pulley !

Your short water pump will work just fine. I would not switch them.
 

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Well I know for sure the 68 engine with the short pump will go in the 69 with no issues.
What do you mean by no issues ? There are a few issues. :)
 

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Dynaflash, You have another problem. A long water pump is not going to fix it.
What temp. is your thermostat ? It sounds more like an airflow issue or your short water pump is just plain bad.

These guys make the best waterpumps, that you can buy.

http://www.stewartcomponents.com/
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Everything is new....New long water pump....I never had a short one. 180 deg thermostat.4 core alum radiator,. All seems to work well as long as you are not running the AC. The AC can be run if the car is going down the road, but stopping the temp goes up. Turn off the AC and the temp goes back down. The flex fan may not be the issue, but it is what the AC "expert" pointed to and said "you will never get this thing to cool until you put a clutch fan on there" I am no expert just a confused Camaro owner that wants to be able to drive with the windows up. THANKS for any and all help. Mark
 

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http://www.rickscamaros.com/product.asp?pf_id=CM-2&dept_id=3524

Here is a page from Ricks First Gen that helps to confuse things more. The frame motor mounts for 67 and 68 are different than 69 but the trans crossmember is the same. I was thinking that the engine may be in a different location from the 68 to the 69 but not sure. Mine sure looks like I can not get a clutch fan in there but I have not attempted it yet. I have 68 engine mounts but everything on the front of the engine is 69 and the flex fan is only 3/4 " from the radiator.
Anybody know for sure if ther is some reason that I can not put a clutch fan in a 68 car with long water pump?
[email protected]
I was wondering the same thing... Only I am putting a 68' 396 in a 69 Camaro...
The difference in the motor mounts is two fold.

First the BBC is moved an inch to the passenger side to clear the steering gear; and the second issue was a nation wide safety recall on all Chevrolet cars that occurred in 1968 to replace the defective motor mounts (they were not defective, just the same motor mount that Chevy put on the 283 in 1958; so they were not up to the task of holding back a 435 horse 427 and broke, a lot; scaring little old ladies who called their lawyer ... well you can see were it went from there).

I sent you an article outlining all of the parts with pictures that are different between a SBC install and a BBC install from the factory. If you have new bushings and follow the factory procedure your headers should fit with stock heads. Make changes that customizes your care from stock and things like off the shelf headers no longer fit.

Here is a picture of the transmission mount which is offset a half inch to the passenger side and moved up 3/4 relative to the SBC mounting point. If you do not use this offset you will have vibration issues and header fitment issues as well.




Larger Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The difference in the motor mounts is two fold.

First the BBC is moved an inch to the passenger side to clear the steering gear; and the second issue was a nation wide safety recall on all Chevrolet cars that occurred in 1968 to replace the defective motor mounts (they were not defective, just the same motor mount that Chevy put on the 283 in 1958; so they were not up to the task of holding back a 435 horse 427 and broke, a lot; scaring little old ladies who called their lawyer ... well you can see were it went from there).

I sent you an article outlining all of the parts with pictures that are different between a SBC install and a BBC install from the factory. If you have new bushings and follow the factory procedure your headers should fit with stock heads. Make changes that customizes your care from stock and things like off the shelf headers no longer fit.

Here is a picture of the transmission mount which is offset a half inch to the passenger side and moved up 3/4 relative to the SBC mounting point. If you do not use this offset you will have vibration issues and header fitment issues as well.




Larger Dave
MAN that is a cool article . I guess that I forgot to mention that my car is a factory big block car. It has headers and they fit well. It ha the right (offset) frame mounts. The only thing that is "wrong" is that it is a 71 big block with th long water pump in a 68 car. It appears that a 69 fan and clutch will not fit but I am unsure if that is true. My questions on the motor mounts etc were to see if the engine position in a factory big block car was the same in 68 as in 69 and is the core support the same from 68 to 69 in location. If they are the same then why did they make the water pump longer? Would that not change the location of the fan to be too close to the radiator? THANKS GUYS....I do not mean to ask so many stupid questions, but just can not get a good handle on getting a fan clutch on this car. THANKS. Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Does anyone have a stock 69 Big block car that they could give me the measurement from the face of the water pump to the face of the radiator?
 

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MAN that is a cool article . I guess that I forgot to mention that my car is a factory big block car. It has headers and they fit well. It ha the right (offset) frame mounts. The only thing that is "wrong" is that it is a 71 big block with th long water pump in a 68 car. It appears that a 69 fan and clutch will not fit but I am unsure if that is true. My questions on the motor mounts etc were to see if the engine position in a factory big block car was the same in 68 as in 69 and is the core support the same from 68 to 69 in location. If they are the same then why did they make the water pump longer? Would that not change the location of the fan to be too close to the radiator? THANKS GUYS....I do not mean to ask so many stupid questions, but just can not get a good handle on getting a fan clutch on this car. THANKS. Mark
No they changed the radiator from a bolt in to a supported top and bottom by two plates (bottom one fixed, top bolts down) with four rubber isolators top and bottom which fit on the tank. The fan shroud then bolted to the top cover and the radiator core support. The car is identical under the hood so far as room goes so if you convert over to the long pump you will be able to bolt it in with all the stuff out of a 1969 Camaro or a 1969-70 Nova as it had the same radiator etc. in their BBC install.

The other side of the coin is swap back to a short pump and use the brackets off a 1967-'68 BBC to bolt your accessories into the car (another issue is the accessories traded sides in 1969 so some wires might need stretching).

Here is a picture of the 1968 Nova old style set up.


Larger Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #15
OK, my car with the long pump has 3 1/4 " from the face of the water pump to the face of the radiator. I had a guy measure a fan with clutch for a 69 and said that it is 3 1/2 thick, so not only is there 1/4" too little space, I am also sure that the fan needs to be back from the radiator by some amount. I have looked at the radiator to see if it can go forward some, thinking that could be a way to get more room but I do not think it is possible. Any ideas? If the 68 and 69 cars are really the same, then what am I missing? THANKS Mark
 

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It's been proven that the stock clutch fan is about as good as it get's!

I want to say w/ a staggered 7-blade fan?

pdq67
 

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I have a 1979 454 in my 68 Camaro right now. i used all the 69 and later pulleys and alt brakets that came on the motor when I yanked it from the pickup. I am even using the stock clutch fan with my stock 4 core radiator and have plenty of clearance. I used the 68 BB motor mounts and modified my stock small block crossmember to shift the trans over. The Heddman Headers clear the steering box fine. The Alt will move to Pass side when using the 69 and later acc brakets with the long pump.

Matt
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Man what am I doing wrong then? I have a factory big block car that has Headman Headers as well. No issues there, but when it comes to putting the clutch fan on, there just is not enough room. I have a 4 core rad as well and all 69 brackets and pulleys. I will check everything again and see what I can do. THANKS for the help. PS can you measure from the air cleaner stud to the front side of the core support on your car and let me know what that is please? THANKS, Mark
 

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Problem could be your clutch. Check the length of a 69 clutch versus 68 possibly. I also have a later model 454 with 68 engine mounts and 69 style pulleys, brackets and long water pump . I have about 1 1/8" clearance between clutch and 4 core radiator. Seems like I had a couple of clutches laying around and only one of them would actually work due to clearance.
 
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