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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My mechanic asked me whether I wanted to consider changing to the new freon before summer. The current charge isnt putting out very cold air.
What have you folks done in this area?
The old freon is $60 a pound here compared to $8 a pound for the new stuff after going thru some conversion cost. What gets changed as far as parts etc before putting in new freon? What are typical costs related to the conversion?
thanks
click



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69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
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I did it myself in my back yard. Luckily my R12 system was empty when I went to do it

They sell a conversion kit which consists of a few new valves, and they give you a hose to charge the system with those 12 oz. cans. You'll probably have to empty the compressor out as much as you can to get the old oil out of it, because the new systems use a different oil.

I would check ALL o-rings, and replace the orifice. If there were major leaks in your old system, you should probably replace the receiver-dryer too.



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68 Coupe, 350 4-speed
Jim's Camaro Corner
 

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I did a 91 Eagle Talon.It cost $550.00 with a new dryer.The mechanic didn't change to the new kit and it's still working after 3 years.


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68 Camaro Coupe(restoring)
65 Pontiac Parisienne Convertible Summer Cruiser(Canadian version of Bonneville)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
What a break! My wrench just called, (not wench) and said, " Hey this system was already converted to the new freon". Man what a shock. Something actually ISNT gonna cost me more money for a change.

thanks for the input guys.
click

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69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,4.10 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
That was the good news, now the bad... when I picked up my Camaro, he showed me a tiny crack in one of the a/c hoses on the back of the compressor, at the 'L' where the hose comes across the block and then hooks into the aluminum 'L'. Right on the outside of the bend. Can that be welded in place or somehow repaired without removing the whole hose itself? Anyone had good luck trying something like this?
click

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69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,4.10 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS
 

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hey Click, Did your mechanic give you a recommended list for things to do in the changeover? My R-12 system is loosing her charge...

Steve

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Steve - Central Ohio Camaro Club
'69 Camaro RS/SS-350 - Daytona Yellow
'95 Camaro Z-28 - Sebring Silver
click here to see my webpage ---> My Camaros (updated 3/7/02)
 

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The freon that's in the system now has to be recovered, then you can remove/repair the cracked fitting.

Then the system will have to be evacuated and recharged.

You wouldn't want to weld it in place... very high pressures...could be dangerous....

Where I'm from, they are strict about who does AC work....must pass tests and have a license.

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Don~ ZZ430DropTophttp://hometown.aol.com/zz430droptop67rs
~~~~and~~~~
70 RS/Z28
67 RS/SS Convertible, 70 RS/Z28
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Steve, no he didnt say much about the conversion process since it was already done by previous owner. I talked to the alum. welder in town, I have to remove the hose and take it in for welding. He has done many of them. The R134 that was in there has already leaked out now, so I do have to drain the oil before removing the hose. The welder, who used to be a GM a/c tech, said to refill the system one more time but also include some special dye they have, when it leaks out it will be very obvious where any leaks are in case there are more. No sense in fixing one leak, only to have more appear later. Guess thats a good idea.
Ive read about replacing O rings, some valve and evacuating the R12 and oil, drying it out, replacing with new oil, new R134 and presto. Im certainly no expert on this a/c stuff but seems others have done this work in the garage. Here in Minn. law is easier I think. We can buy the R134 at walmart and recharge our own. But any work on R12 seems to be with the license dealers with evac equipment.
So, off for a dye test now.

click

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69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,4.10 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS
 

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Doesn't matter whether it's R-12 or R-134a, you can't "recharge" it at home with cans. The system has to be evacuated with a high-vacuum pump, held at high vacuum to check for gross leaks, then charged with the correct weight of refrigerant under pressure while the system is still under high vacuum. The cans are a band-aid to temporarily add refrigerant if you have a (very) slow leak. If you don't evacuate it and hold it there, you won't know if you have a leak until after it's charged and then you lose all the refrigerant and do it all over again after repairing the leak.

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JohnZ
CRG
'69 Z28 Fathom Green
 

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I had my 454 truck converted. My compresser was allready shot so a new one was installed. The rest of the system evacuated. All O-rings were replaced since system was down, a no-brainer. A test was done like JohnZ said, that's how it should be anyway. $350 later I was cool, calm, & collected.

Still works well 3 years later.

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Steve
67 396 race car project
67 SS 396,4-sp mothballed for resto
67 RS 327,4-sp
72 RS 350/350, under current resto
69 4X4 suburban 350,4-sp
73 3/4 ton 454/400
Stevo Camaro's Toy
Our Muscle Cars
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks again John
and you can bet Im not touching this stuff at home. This project goes back to the pro's with the right equipment.
Im glad to just be learning all the things that are different than 20 years ago when I used to do more of my own wrenching. Changed out the plugs today and man was that fun. To most of you, no biggie, but I had not gotten my arms inside a motor under the a/c and knuckles cut,greasy in nearly 25 years. It felt good.



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69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,4.10 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS
 

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Good for you, Click. What plugs did you end up going with? Sorry I never got back to you... it has been hectic here lately....

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Steve - Central Ohio Camaro Club
'69 Camaro RS/SS-350 - Daytona Yellow
'95 Camaro Z-28 - Sebring Silver
click here to see my webpage ---> My Camaros (updated 3/7/02)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
LOL Steve I have not bought them yet, was waiting for your advice
And with no cap or rotor it wasnt going anywhere very quickly.
My new cap and rotor did arrive today, wait till I take pics of the old cap, gawwwwd the center point was ground down or etched down to being concave up into the top. No wonder it was running rough.
If the new snow melts I might get her on the road again this weekend.


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69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,4.10 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS
 

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Oh.. in that case, I show that the stock plugs for your heads (350/250hp) are R45S.

The 350/300hp calls for R44S.

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Steve - Central Ohio Camaro Club
'69 Camaro RS/SS-350 - Daytona Yellow
'95 Camaro Z-28 - Sebring Silver
click here to see my webpage ---> My Camaros (updated 3/7/02)
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JohnZ:
Doesn't matter whether it's R-12 or R-134a, you can't "recharge" it at home with cans. The system has to be evacuated with a high-vacuum pump, held at high vacuum to check for gross leaks, then charged with the correct weight of refrigerant under pressure while the system is still under high vacuum. The cans are a band-aid to temporarily add refrigerant if you have a (very) slow leak. If you don't evacuate it and hold it there, you won't know if you have a leak until after it's charged and then you lose all the refrigerant and do it all over again after repairing the leak.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just a couple of things about what JohnZ has said here. First off you "can" recharge your system with the small cans. I dont feel that he really understands liquid refrigerants. There is no differance between a 30 pound cylinder of 134a and a 1 pound can. There is a temperature/pressure relationship but it not like dealing with compressed gasses to where as your volume of material drops the press. does as well. Compressed liquids maintain a constant pressure as long as liquid and vapor are in contact. So, on to the other statment that i disagreed with. He said that the systems needed to be pulled down with "high vacuum". Well, 30" is about standard for system evacuation. Not really what I would consider "High Vacuum" This can be easily achived with very inexspensive pumps or even air driven venturi devices that I have seen sell for under $20.00. And unless your worried that you may be introducing alot of moisture into the system pulling it down isn't always necessary to charge it. Throw a pound or so in it so that the safety switch is made and the compresser will run and then charge it in on the low side and let the compressor do the work for you. When the system starts getting to operating pressures the low side of the system is going to be far less than the pressure of the can. I rarely need to evacuate a system to charge it.
Now I wasn't trying to start a big argument here, just trying to clarify a few things.
Hope this info helps.


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Jason Renschler
Gilbert, AZ
1968 Camaro - 350 4-speed
1969 Camaro - 350 4-speed

[This message has been edited by jrenschler (edited 05-12-2002).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks guys, Im printing all this out and will review it with my a/c tech at GM when I get this done. I dont have all the vacuum systems or much for tools for that matter. Just your basic sockets and wrenches. I really do like the input cuz I know others also read these and make copies to share the info.
click

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69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,4.10 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS
 

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30" of vacuum is the highest you can get.

Full vacuum = 30"

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Steve - Central Ohio Camaro Club
'69 Camaro RS/SS-350 - Daytona Yellow
'95 Camaro Z-28 - Sebring Silver
click here to see my webpage ---> My Camaros (updated 3/7/02)
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mccorry:
30" of vacuum is the highest you can get.

Full vacuum = 30"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

30" is about as high as the "h20 scale goes. But, true "high vacuum" is more in the ranges of 1x10-3 torr - 1x10-8 torr.

[This message has been edited by jrenschler (edited 05-13-2002).]
 

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I converted to R134a on my daily driver, new compressor and o-rings. Charged it up with the small cans no problem. I opened the high side while putting the first can in until the freon started coming out. This was an attempt to force the air out of the system. Then cranked her up and charged to the correct pressures. I know the vacuum way is the correct way and your not suppose to let any 134a into the atmosphere. Two years later it still works fine.

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Robert Johnson

'69 getting better every day... (every pay day)
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Jason - you know your stuff.
I have recharged many systems without vac'ing them down with complete sucess. Maybe living in these dry climes' as we do we don't see any problems like in the high humidity areas, but I did several systems for a friend in Wilm, DE. many years ago (R-12) and never had a problem back there either.
I've been trying to find a supplier for FR-12 around here the last couple days and so far nobody knows what it is or where to get it. I'm so tired of them telling me "it's illegal to have that stuff" I could puke. Left a e-mail at the web-site for a list of suppliers and MSDS.
BTW - Jason, your in Gilbert? You work for a Semi-conductor outfit? Most people don't have a clue about 'real vacuum'.

John (BOC-Edwards Inc.)

[This message has been edited by Vintage 68 (edited 05-13-2002).]
 
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