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Discussion Starter #1
I just put in a 357 CI in my 67 to replace my original 327. Have a Edelbrock 1406 carb that was on the 327 but need to tune carb for this motor.

The 1487 kit is specific to the 1406 carb and comes with just a few selections of rods, springs & jets. Ironically one of the included jet sizes is the same size that the 1406 has which only leaves 2 other jet sizes in this kit

Anyone used the kit on their 1406 who can comment on +/-?

Motor has a 220/224 cam @ 112 LSA and 10:1 compression
Motor dyno is 411 hp/413 tq using a 600 cfm carb

Right now initial timing (vacuum advance plugged) is 11 degrees and all in at 3500 rpm it is 35-36 degrees
 

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"Right now initial timing (vacuum advance plugged) is 11 degrees and all in at 3500 rpm it is 35-36 degrees" The way I read this, the vacuum advance is NOT connected, it is just sitting there like a bump on a log, doing absolutely nothing.

Why is it that there is so much total arrogance, ignorance and stupidity about vacuum advance proper setup and use? GUESS WHAT, IT AIN'T THAT HARD, AND NEEDS TO BE IN PLACE AND WORKING PROPERLY IN ORDER TO GET THE CARB DIALED IN CORRECTLY.

Oh, Well, it just ain't worth going over it yet again, the info is here, and everywhere, just takes someone that wants to do it right in the first place.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Al

The Edelbrock site says: The AVS2 Series Carburetor Calibration Kit #1948 is for tuners looking to custom-tune the performance of their #1905 or #1906 carburetor

While it does offer more rods, jets, etc....it does not say its for the 1406. Their 1487 kit is specific to the 1406 carb

With that said are all edelbrock rods, jets, springs the same size and work in all their Performer series carbs? ...it would appear not if they make calibration kits specific to a particular model of carbs they make

or am I missing something?

On the timing...I for now have set it without using VA to keep it lower per BP initial start-up procedure. They were specific about this step. Also used their "break-in" oil even though this is a full roller cam motor so there would be no "discussion" with BP regarding any post initial start up issues, which there so far have not been any

After getting the calibration kit I will dial in timing using VA and set idle likely slightly higher. For now I have only driven the car about 10 miles and doing general shake down. All seems to be going well. Now with a temp sender, for gauge, in the head I see actual vs the "T" adapter on intake on the 327 which always read low compared to IR gun. Temp at T stat is about 10 degrees cooler than rear PS head port. I have the dash temp light wired to sender next to stat on the air gap manifold. Gauge showed 185 while driving and it went up to around 190ish with it just idling for about 15 min although it was about 90 degrees outside. Oil pressure light also with sender top rear of block and gauge sender above oil filter

This motor sits exactly where the 327 was and was otherwise plug & play on install
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Why is it that there is so much total arrogance, ignorance and stupidity about vacuum advance proper setup and use?
Mr Ray. Please refrain from using derogatory language towards me, or any other post, you seem to want to come crap in.

While you may offer some useful knowledge there is no need to make false derogatory comments towards people

If you have some useful comments regarding this threads ? on the 1487 kit than and can respond without derogatory name calling than post, otherwise go elsewhere with your insults

Mods...this seems to be a chronic pattern with Mr Ray.
 

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"Right now initial timing (vacuum advance plugged) is 11 degrees and all in at 3500 rpm it is 35-36 degrees" The way I read this, the vacuum advance is NOT connected, it is just sitting there like a bump on a log, doing absolutely nothing.

Why is it that there is so much total arrogance, ignorance and stupidity about vacuum advance proper setup and use? GUESS WHAT, IT AIN'T THAT HARD, AND NEEDS TO BE IN PLACE AND WORKING PROPERLY IN ORDER TO GET THE CARB DIALED IN CORRECTLY.

Oh, Well, it just ain't worth going over it yet again, the info is here, and everywhere, just takes someone that wants to do it right in the first place.
Its my understanding that initial timing is supposed to be set without vacuum advance enabled. Then the vacuum advance ads more advance at idle and low load, which is the intention. When you apply load (ie hit the gas) the vacuum advance drops out and you go back to the initial advance without vacuum. If you set initial timing with vacuum advance connected, under load your lower RPM timing may be after TDC. That's my understanding but maybe its my arrogance, ignorance and stupidity coming through. :)

FWIW, he didn't say he wasn't using vacuum, advance just that he set his initial timing with it plugged.
 

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Al - Waterloo, Iowa
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Roger, I wouldn't have intentionally purchased the 1948 kit if I didn't believe it was for the 1406 AVS2 carb. I have used pieces from it without problems. I'll be damned if I know where I got that info now. I'm going to go back through my notes, etc. to see. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. On the timing, I did not take your post as to say you weren't going to run vac advance. Simply you were checking your total mechanical timing.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Al

I have calibration kits for Holly carbs which cover a variety of those. For whatever reason the Edelbrock 1406 carb uses, according to "application" notes, the 1487 kit which is specific to that carb only

Yes I am going to use VA but the detailed start-up instructions that came with the BP motor say specifically to bring motor to 2000 rpm, set total timing with VA plugged to 34 then let it idle down which was then 11 degrees. Apparently they don't want to much timing for the first 20 min of run time....ironically though the motor was dynoed by them so my assumption is the motor had already been through the initial "start up" process.. BP is likely just covering their a$$ as crate motor install is out of their hands

Once I get the calibration kit I will dial in everything. Obviously the 357 heads/cam motor needs more than the old iron head 327 than my 1406 is currently calibrated for. With that said the car starts, runs, idles and does not hesitate under moderate acceleration so will put a few more miles on it.

Orielys has the Edelbrock kit locally
 

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Al - Waterloo, Iowa
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Roger, I figured out why I have the 1948 kit. It's because I have the 1906 AVS2 carb. Not the 1406. Very sorry for any confusion. I did compare the part #'s between kits and many of jets and metering rods are the same so I'm going to say the 1948 kit would work with the 1406 carb. YMMV.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
yeah the 1906 is a 650 cfm with mechanical secondary's and the 1406 is a 600 cfm with vac secondary's

I would think your 650 was a tad large if you are running those 210 hp iron heads so did you have to "downsize" on the jets?

I know I make less vacuum with this 357 and have a much bigger cam and heads than my old 327 so I need to tweak my 1406 some. If I didn't already have the 1406 I would have gotten the Holly 680 cfm or the Edelbrock 1906
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I'm running double hump heads ~18" vacuum @ idle. Cam is an Erson E110016.
18" good vacuum for a non stock cam

Now done with the BP initial engine run, I just put my vac gauge on to see what it was with no VA and initial timing at 11 degrees and as I assumed it was low without VA, 14. Hooked up VA and vacuum came up to 17.5 and I was able to adjust idle some and got vac to hit 18 and gauge is quite stable.

While the new damper is etched with timing marks they are hard to see, at least in driveway during daylight, so will lay on Timing Tape I have for the size damper and likely get a few more degrees in it when I can see more clearly individual degree marks.

Then I will get into the metering rods, springs & jets.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Roger, I did compare the part #'s between kits and many of jets and metering rods are the same so I'm going to say the 1948 kit would work with the 1406 carb. YMMV.
Al

My 1406 came with a 4" hg (most Edelbrock carbs come with a 5") Step Up spring installed.

Are the springs with larger " (5,7,8) progressively firmer or softer?

I think I need a softer spring to keep the metering rod down at idle with my cam (220-224) but the Edelbrock 411 is saying, if I understand it correctly, to use a 7" (pink) or 8" (silver)...

If the lower " = softer than a 3" is the only other spring in the 1487 kit

In the "Tuning Procedure-Long Duration Camshaft" it does say use 1/2 the engine vacuum which is 14-16" so that would be a 7" or 8" hg spring
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Roger, From what I can tell the springs are not progressive. Mine came with a #5 (orange) and I changed it to a #4 (yellow, softer). That helped with idle and cruise (mpg).
My "assumption" is the lower the " hg rating the "softer" the spring is which I assume would help the metering rods stay down with lower than stock vacuum. This would mean I would try a 3" as I have a 4" installed stock vs a 7" or 8" hg spring as specified in the " long duration camshaft" section of "tuning instructions"....although this may be trial & error to see what helps the issue. It may involve a different metering rod & or jet but I was following the adjustment procedures listed in the instructions which I had to search & download...as whatever came in the kit was not the entire process.

Unfortunately the kit I got via Amazon appears to have either been mis-packaged or was a return someone used parts from and returned. metering rods are missing and one pair appear to have been used even though the sticker seal was still on container...you can open it by popping the hinge side or a heat gun to remove the security sticker....and then re-apply it, IDK. I just retrned it to Amazon and got onother ordered from Summit out of Sparks, NV which is here in one day ground for a few $ more than Amazon.

Motor runs good and no flat spots or hesitation when driving although I have yet to do a WOT from stop to 6k rpm until I get past the 500 mi break-in. but in gear at a stop there is some surging idle and increasing idle rpm to get more vacuum is a partial band aide but the function of carb is what needs tweaking. I have also set idle mixture more on the lean side to help but would like to get the carb to function better with a spring or other calibration adjustment vs band aide procedures that themselves cause other issues

The erratic idle is not the typical "cam lope". The 220-224 cam is not "huge" duration

Of the 52 page instructions I have printed the pages specific to the 1406 but unfortunately pg 18 which has a "troubleshooting grid" will not print or is viewable fully leaving off the "why" column. I have tried to shrink the page via adobe pro to view that column but nada.
 

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Al - Waterloo, Iowa
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You are correct. The lower #hg the softer the spring. Changing to #3 may help. If it doesn't help the idle surge verify your advance weights aren't moving/bouncing. I had a shortage of the hair pin clips (only 1 of 6) in my kit and one set of rods looked like they had been installed also. Got mine from Summit. I didn't return it because this was the 2nd problem in a row I had with Summit. I rarely buy from them anymore. The seal showed signs of having been opened. Most likely was a return. This is why I try to buy local. I can bitch in person. Here's a good article
on the AVS carbs.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks for the link Al, good detail in it.

I am not using VA currently and have set total timing at 34 which leaves initial at 11. Adding VA gets me to much advance at idle if I raise it high enough to get better vacuum at idle which is just not the way to resolve the Step-Up spring issue.

Given I already have a 4" IDK if going to the lowest 3" will be enough but will see when the new calibration kit comes

IDK who the seller source was for Amazon as it says sold & shipped by Amazon but it did take several days to get here. It certainly appears it was a used kit like yours from Summit. Fortunately Summit is very easy for returns especially for parts missing components but ideally the new kit direct from Summit will not have been tampered with

Different jets or metering rods won't address the idle so ideally the spring change will resolve it. Once motor is broken in and I can run the motor full WOT to redline and do more "cruising" I will be better able to see if additional jet or rod adjustments are needed

All part of having modified motors in 50+ year old cars :)
 

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Al - Waterloo, Iowa
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Roger, I wasn't talking about the VA. I'm saying check that your mechanical advance weights aren't trying to come in and out at idle. Easiest way is just remove them or rubber band them tight and fire it up to see if the idle improves. Jets and rods can make a difference in the idle quality. It's all about fuel volume and flow.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
I put a 3" hg spring in and idle is better. I also raised the neutral RPM higher to about 900 rpm as it drops to about 680-700 in gear and idles better with the cam. 650 RPM is to lopey and idle fluctuates. Getting 16"hg with the higher idle

I did talk to Edelbrock Tech because the replacement kit I got also was missing a set of metering rods. He checked what they were supposed to have and sure enough I was missing one set. IDK if I will wind up using that particular rod but Edelbrock is sending me a set.

The "packed on" date for both kits are the same so I suspect whoever is filling the kits missed a set of rods in that batch

EDIT:
I wanted to add 2 more degrees of total timing (32 to 34) which should be a "simple" process. Loosened the dizzy hold down bolt and the distributor won't move. I discovered that the cap, hold down screw tab that sticks out from cap, hits (barely) on the coil preventing me from easily turning (don't want to force it) the dizzy.

On further review I see the coil mount bracket holes on manifold are "slightly" more inboard on my Air Gap than my old manifold. I need to slot the holes of the coil bracket to stand it off by 1/8" or bend it slightly more back. I will FIO when I pull it but it looks to be a minor "adjustment"

It just so happened the slight movement of getting a few more degrees was where the contact came with the coil

I initially thought the dizzy might be one tooth off but it now appears the coil mount is slightly different on the Air Gap manifold. When I add some more advance the cap will rotate like it was on the old motor.
 
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