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I find the story interesting but several things are hard to believe like it selling used 9-10 years later for the same price it sold for new in 1969. As well it was first sold as new in 1969 and got full sticker price when the car was effectively 3 model years old! Both sales were made because the buyers realized the historical value of the cars VIN...

Another bit that stands out is the buyer that turned it into a drag racer also understood the historical value of the car and he saved all the parts he stripped off it! These cars were a dime a dozen as used cars, if this one was valued as anything more than a shell for a go fast car I don't see it being turned into a drag car.

I know stranger things have happened...
 

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I find the story interesting but several things are hard to believe like it selling used 9-10 years later for the same price it sold for new in 1969. As well it was first sold as new in 1969 and got full sticker price when the car was effectively 3 model years old! Both sales were made because the buyers realized the historical value of the cars VIN...

Another bit that stands out is the buyer that turned it into a drag racer also understood the historical value of the car and he saved all the parts he stripped off it! These cars were a dime a dozen as used cars, if this one was valued as anything more than a shell for a go fast car I don't see it being turned into a drag car.

I know stranger things have happened...
You and me both Dennis. :yes:

Two plus two is not six. :noway:
 

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Hi guys glad you could make it! By all means lets talk about the car!

To be productive nearly every question has already been asked and the car has also been well bashed:

http://camaropacecars.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6211035326/m/7061078256?r=9181017456#9181017456

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/575812/1/camaro-history-on-display-tomo

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=155777

Here for the questions but not the passive loaded "those guys are lying or making it up" stuff. Frankly I find that pretty insulting at this point and so does Mr Lawson.

At this point we are blessed with one of the most transparent Camaro websites ever-- with no data hidden from anyone: http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/

What is not to like guys? Lets start here. We should be celebrating our accomplishments as a hobby.
 

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I find the story interesting but several things are hard to believe like it selling used 9-10 years later for the same price it sold for new in 1969. As well it was first sold as new in 1969 and got full sticker price when the car was effectively 3 model years old! Both sales were made because the buyers realized the historical value of the cars VIN...

Another bit that stands out is the buyer that turned it into a drag racer also understood the historical value of the car and he saved all the parts he stripped off it! These cars were a dime a dozen as used cars, if this one was valued as anything more than a shell for a go fast car I don't see it being turned into a drag car.

I know stranger things have happened...
Everything in the video is documented in writing including the official sales receipts that were held by the state at the title department... as to the drag car history ownership is documented and complete and the video is factual.
 

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I have a question about the cars listed on the pilot car site. Obviously someone paid the NCRS for info on the first 49 VIN number cars and got the selling dealer, zone number and build date info for them. How did they tie pilot car X to Vin number Y? Where did they get the option list to compare a specific DD# cars options to a certain VIN number to make this correlation. So far only DD01 is the only one of 3 known cars that has lined up 1 to 1 and as far as we know GM does not have the production data for normal production cars to do this, with the exception of the cars shipped to Canada. Somebody have some new data source that lists RPOs against VINs?
 

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I have a question about the cars listed on the pilot car site. Obviously someone paid the NCRS for info on the first 49 VIN number cars and got the selling dealer, zone number and build date info for them. How did they tie pilot car X to Vin number Y? Where did they get the option list to compare a specific DD# cars options to a certain VIN number to make this correlation. So far only DD01 is the only one of 3 known cars that has lined up 1 to 1 and as far as we know GM does not have the production data for normal production cars to do this, with the exception of the cars shipped to Canada. Somebody have some new data source that lists RPOs against VINs?
Good question!

All the VIN's line up in chronological order and match the sequencing in the pilot book.

DD01D Matches N10001

DD10 Matches N10010.

Of known examples that survive all known examples also match the sequencing in the pilot book- exactly.

In a mass example of cars one dealer ordered three cars total. All three have known option content and known VIN's and known destinations. Two of the three happen to be N10001 and N10049 and again the option content matches the placement sequence in the book exactly 1 and 49.

Good to see the CRG making such a spirited showing tonight on the forum. Perhaps we can work together for the betterment of the hobby!
 

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OK, I see that there are DD numbers missing in the sequence now, they are not DD1 thru DD49, they go as high as DD63 for Norwood built cars. So if you just stack them up in DD number order they line up with VINs 1 thru 49. Thought someone might ave found some new data source to tie VINs to options. Thanks for the info.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hi guys glad you could make it! By all means lets talk about the car!

To be productive nearly every question has already been asked and the car has also been well bashed:

http://camaropacecars.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6211035326/m/7061078256?r=9181017456#9181017456

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/575812/1/camaro-history-on-display-tomo

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=155777

Here for the questions but not the passive loaded "those guys are lying or making it up" stuff. Frankly I find that pretty insulting at this point and so does Mr Lawson.

At this point we are blessed with one of the most transparent Camaro websites ever-- with no data hidden from anyone: http://www.pilotcarregistry.com/

What is not to like guys? Lets start here. We should be celebrating our accomplishments as a hobby.
You and Mr Lawson need thicker skin with regard to this car. The world is full of embellishing and deceit and folks need to be skeptical to protect themselves. Something that my dad tried to teach me from a very young age is in the court of public opinion if you are not guilty you don't need to defend yourself!

A recent story aired on TV about 2 rare Firebirds and as it turns out the cars are real but the story presented was scripted fiction... Another popular automotive restoration TV show is known for making up the prices of cars they buy and sell as well as the cost of the restorations... Going beyond the realm of reality TV fake cars are being passed off as high dollar collector pieces with faked documentation every day!

Do I find it hard to believe the car after being used by Chevrolet as a show piece ended up going back to the factory to be made ready for sale and sat on a dealers lot for 2 years before being sold for sticker price? Yes, it's hard to believe but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Do I find it hard to believe 9-10 years later a 6cyl Camaro sold used for the same price it sold for when new in '69? Yes but again it very well could have happened! Now on top of everything else put all the questionable bits together and again, yes I find it a bit hard to believe all the things happened to one car. But again I concede it could happen...

Personally most folks don't know you or anyone else on the players list from Adam, your names are not household items or listed in the book of who's who. That said you are going to be questioned and how you handle the questioning is going to set the path for if what you present is accepted in the end or not. Surely you see that, and surely you wouldn't advise others to blindly believe everything that is presented to them as fact...

Yesterday I read on a Camaro website's FB page where someone said "everyone should know there was no 350 in a Camaro in 1967, the 350 didn't come out until 1969 and the SS in '67 had a 307 in it." What does this guy know that the rest of us don't? That was such a misinformed bit of information it wasn't even worth anyone's time to say go get a Camaro White Book... If what you say and believe are 100% true with facts to back it up, documents authenticated etc then you have no reason to defend yourself from the naysayer's the evidence will speak for itself...
 

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You and Mr Lawson need thicker skin with regard to this car. The world is full of embellishing and deceit and folks need to be skeptical to protect themselves. Something that my dad tried to teach me from a very young age is in the court of public opinion if you are not guilty you don't need to defend yourself!

A recent story aired on TV about 2 rare Firebirds and as it turns out the cars are real but the story presented was scripted fiction... Another popular automotive restoration TV show is known for making up the prices of cars they buy and sell as well as the cost of the restorations... Going beyond the realm of reality TV fake cars are being passed off as high dollar collector pieces with faked documentation every day!

Do I find it hard to believe the car after being used by Chevrolet as a show


piece ended up going back to the factory to be made ready for sale and sat on
a dealers lot for 2 years before being sold for sticker price? Yes, it's hard to
believe but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Do I find it hard to believe 9-
10 years later a 6cyl Camaro sold used for the same price it sold for when new
in '69? Yes but again it very well could have happened! Now on top of
everything else put all the questionable bits together and again, yes I find it a
bit hard to believe all the things happened to one car. But again I concede it
could happen...

Personally most folks don't know you or anyone else on the players list from Adam, your names are not household items or listed in the book of who's who. That said you are going to be questioned and how you handle the questioning is going to set the path for if what you present is accepted in the end or not.
Surely you see that, and surely you wouldn't advise others to blindly believe
everything that is presented to them as fact...

Yesterday I read on a Camaro website's FB page where someone said
"everyone should know there was no 350 in a Camaro in 1967, the 350 didn't
come out until 1969 and the SS in '67 had a 307 in it." What does this guy
know that the rest of us don't? That was such a misinformed bit of
information it wasn't even worth anyone's time to say go get a Camaro White
Book... If what you say and believe are 100% true with facts to back it up,
documents authenticated etc then you have no reason to defend yourself from the naysayer's the evidence will speak for itself...

To a degree I agree with you. Why not spend some time on www.pilotcarregistry.com. The Info there is good if not better than most.
 

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Phil, hopefully you can answer some questions without getting too defensive. I believe the questions are reasonable and are not "bashing".

The timeline of this car has me scratching my head a bit.

Work started at Fisher Body May 17, 1966
Coach delivered by Fisher Body May 21, 1966
Camaro name released June 28, 1966
This vehicle required to be in Detroit August 1, 1966 by D. Reeves for sales convention
Full production began August 7, 1966 at Norwood
Engine dated August 3 installed in the car and car shipper date is August 10

So if the vehicle was built in late May and used as a "assembly test mule" then was this car a "glider" (no engine/transmission installed) between late May and early August?

Were any engines or transmissions ever installed while it was a "test mule"?

Have you been able to confirm when the sales convention took place (exact date) and if the car was there at that time?

Have you been able to get exact dates for the photos of the car without emblems and do the correspond to the time prior to the official naming of the car?

Why is the build date on the body tag later (by several months) than the date the body was released by Fisher and also later than the shipping date?
 

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Phil, hopefully you can answer some questions without getting too defensive. I believe the questions are reasonable and are not "bashing".

The timeline of this car has me scratching my head a bit.

Work started at Fisher Body May 17, 1966
Coach delivered by Fisher Body May 21, 1966
Camaro name released June 28, 1966
This vehicle required to be in Detroit August 1, 1966 by D. Reeves for sales convention
Full production began August 7, 1966 at Norwood
Engine dated August 3 installed in the car and car shipper date is August 10

So if the vehicle was built in late May and used as a "assembly test mule" then was this car a "glider" (no engine/transmission installed) between late May and early August?

Were any engines or transmissions ever installed while it was a "test mule"?

Have you been able to confirm when the sales convention took place (exact date) and if the car was there at that time?

Have you been able to get exact dates for the photos of the car without emblems and do the correspond to the time prior to the official naming of the car?

Why is the build date on the body tag later (by several months) than the date the body was released by Fisher and also later than the shipping date?
Glad to help!

We will get to your answers but first help me with the term "glider" where did that term come from?

And why would I be defensive? Help me to understand this also please...:D

The owner of the Pilotcar registry has contacted Kurt to discuss matters - and Kurt told him he would return the call. Perhaps Kurt has additional information?

Great questions.....
Believe me I agree 100%.:thumbsup:
 

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What does it matter where the term came from, he described his use of the word to mean "no engine/transmission installed"

I need to place context to the question posed by Brian. Please let Brian answer.:D

MODERATOR NOTE: The poster is asking about member bcm66 "Bryon / Big D - I think the following threads were confusing since there was no Brian in the thread at this point who asked any questions.
 

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Originally Posted by Echoes of Norwood
I need to place context to the question posed by Brian. Please let Brian answer.:D


This is pretty typical of "Mr Echoes of..".. he comes to these forums to glean as much information as he can, but he shares nothing other than 'visit my website.. buy my book'.... It's all worth what we get from it....... ZIP....

PS. I have a copy of the book; it's filled with obvious errors; I've asked about a 'corrected edition', but didn't get an answer to that question either....
 

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Glad to help!

We will get to your answers but first help me with the term "glider" where did that term come from?
...
You must be an automotive 'newbie' there Phil ... :D

It is a very common term to describe a vehicle in a certain configuration ... :yes:

Here's a link to further your education ... "Glider" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_(automobiles)

If it's got a whole Wiki page then it certainly should be accepted jargon :thumbsup:
 

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Originally Posted by Echoes of Norwood
I need to place context to the question posed by Brian. Please let Brian answer.:D




This is pretty typical of "Mr Echoes of..".. he comes to these forums to glean as much information as he can, but he shares nothing other than 'visit my website.. buy my book'.... It's all worth what we get from it....... ZIP....

PS. I have a copy of the book; it's filled with obvious errors; I've asked about a 'corrected edition', but didn't get an answer to that question either....

Kind of early to be circling the wagons huh boys?

If you want answers I get to understand the questions (first) what harm is there in that right?

Mods: Please moderate personal attacks as needed. There may be an effort afoot to get the thread locked up.

MODERATOR NOTE: At this point in the thread there are no real violations of our policies. They are all asking valid questions. In truth you do tend to always point folks to marketing resources such as other websites you are affiliated with that are selling items. Just calling it as I see it. Your signature below for example.
 
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