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1968 Camaro 1975 camaro
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Yes, I have a bunch of projects coming on all at one time, after I figure out the brakes on the 68, I am going to start rebuilding the front end of my 75 camaro. I HATE the way the front end floats around and follows ruts.. plus all the bushings are showing their age.

Currently it is stock with the exception of a ws6 sway bar and springs and kyb shocks that are... 35 years old now.

I am torn between two plans:
First idea:
-reuse the lower stock control arms(clean and paint them) and put poly bushings in them with a new ball joint from moog.
-global west upper control arms with delrin bushings, basically just a bolt on and go.
-Bilstein shocks
-Replace all steering linkages with proforged units

Second Idea:
-Classic performance control arm kit(upper and lower) 7081TCA-ULK-B
-Bilstein shocks
-Replace all steering linkages with proforged units

Clean/inspect all reusable parts(spindle, rotors, calipers) all of which seem to be working well. I just repacked the bearings about 1000 miles ago and everything looked good. I will just do it again upon reinstall.


Thoughts?
Trying to stay within about 1000 dollars.

This is a street car that I drive spiritedly and sometimes a bit too fast. Our roads suck and have ruts so it likes to tramline/follow them.

EDIT: Classic Performance tubular control arms are designed to add up to five degrees of caster in certain applications, while providing full wheel travel. They're manufactured from 1.250 in., 0.120 in. thick wall DOM tubing, with pivot barrels made from 1.500 in., 0.188 in. thick wall DOM tubing to help eliminate distortion. These control arms use bushings made from self-lubricating, non-squeak patented material that will outlast any rubber or polyurethane bushing. The control arms are designed as bolt-in replacements for your factory originals. Classic Performance tubular control arms will tighten up your front suspension and give you that performance ride through the corners and on straight roads. Select the model and options recommended for your vehicle.

These are supposed to give the caster I need.
 

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I vote for stick with poly bushings and moog parts. If your roads have the ruts you're describing , I don't think any set up is going to do great. Maybe look into a different tire width. Driving my old pro street builds I noticed the wider the tire the more the road would pull it into the grooves. Just a thought.馃
 

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1968 Camaro 1975 camaro
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I vote for stick with poly bushings and moog parts. If your roads have the ruts you're describing , I don't think any set up is going to do great. Maybe look into a different tire width. Driving my old pro street builds I noticed the wider the tire the more the road would pull it into the grooves. Just a thought.馃
The CPP parts have poly bushings--but you're right I may just need a smaller tire. I used to have skinnies on the front and it did drive nice! I want to say I barely have a 235 on the front; but from what I have read is that more caster will help with this... and the only way to get more caster is aftermarket arms.
I think I might go with CPP due to not having to deal with the lower arms.. making it way easier to install.
 

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say no to poly bushings in control arms.

I like plan A, its a common plan we use around here. Rebuild those lowers with delrin based bushings (global west, ridetech, PTFB). Get uppers with delrin based bushings, like GW, UMI, PTFB, DSE or others. Tall upper ball joint is a good addition. Good shocks and correct springs make the over all package.
 

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1968 Camaro 1975 camaro
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
say no to poly bushings in control arms.

I like plan A, its a common plan we use around here. Rebuild those lowers with delrin based bushings (global west, ridetech, PTFB). Get uppers with delrin based bushings, like GW, UMI, PTFB, DSE or others. Tall upper ball joint is a good addition. Good shocks and correct springs make the over all package.
I've read mixed reviews for delrin so I'm hesitant. I understand if shouldn't allow binding and if allows the suspension to do its job... But it's still solid. This isn't a race car and primarily street and poly has been around forever without many issues.. I'm also concerned about destroying the lowers 馃槀
I'm still undecided as I know both will work... Just what will be more reliable while giving me better handling feel
 

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I have poly on my car, and don't regret it at all.
 
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I have never had a squeak on my bushings either. I think most of the squeaky bushings is due to instillation error. I have installed alit of them, as well as delrin . I prefer poly.
 
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I've read mixed reviews for delrin so I'm hesitant. I understand if shouldn't allow binding and if allows the suspension to do its job... But it's still solid. This isn't a race car and primarily street and poly has been around forever without many issues.. I'm also concerned about destroying the lowers 馃槀
I'm still undecided as I know both will work... Just what will be more reliable while giving me better handling feel
i don't know what problems with a delrin based one you've read about. They certainly do not allow anymore NVH than poly if that is what you are driving at. And "poly has been around forever without many issues" isn't correct either. Problems with it are even outline in Herb Adams' suspension book. I'll take a global west del-a-lum bushing over a poly in handling and reliability everyday. I've setup a number of 2nd gens like this, my current 77 Z28 has well over 30,000 miles on SPC uppers and stock lowers with GW bushings. But there are many ways to skin a cat. I wish you luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
i don't know what problems with a delrin based one you've read about. They certainly do not allow anymore NVH than poly if that is what you are driving at. And "poly has been around forever without many issues" isn't correct either. Problems with it are even outline in Herb Adams' suspension book. I'll take a global west del-a-lum bushing over a poly in handling and reliability everyday. I've setup a number of 2nd gens like this, my current 77 Z28 has well over 30,000 miles on SPC uppers and stock lowers with GW bushings. But there are many ways to skin a cat. I wish you luck.
Mostly import guys that drive their car on a daily basis. A lot of research shows they do have NHV while most try to say they don't. It's in their design. Poly has been around... And hasn't had issues... Can you explain the issues they've had that haven't been user error?

I look at delrin as a race only and poly as a performance oriented that's a step above stock.
 

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Mostly import guys that drive their car on a daily basis. A lot of research shows they do have NHV while most try to say they don't. It's in their design. Poly has been around... And hasn't had issues... Can you explain the issues they've had that haven't been user error?

I look at delrin as a race only and poly as a performance oriented that's a step above stock.
HTF could I talk about user errors? i wasn't there or even know the applications in questions, the parts used, other changes made, etc.

Technically any bushing that is harder than what you replaced will raise NVH to some degree, even harder durometer rubber bushings. My experience installing higher quality bushings utilizing delrin on a number of street cars has been very positive with excellent ride and wear characteristics. Conversely I have removed many cold flowed/distorted poly bushings and body mounts over the years. But I get my anecdotal evidence in actual 2nd gens is not as strong as anecdotal evidence from import guys. In reality, your shock & spring selection and tire selection and sizing have a much bigger impact to NVH than any of this. My 77 was butter smooth with 15s, got a bit rougher with 18s, nature of the beast. But she was quite comfy driving from NJ to NC in it, as was my buddy's 79 BBC Camaro with a similar setup but with 15s. Maybe not daily drivers, but certainly more mileage than 95% old cars ever get on their bi-weekly trip to cruise night. There might be a reason all the quality US made controls arms for our cars get delrin-based stuff while the budget and entry level stuff gets poly. Or not.

You asked for thoughts, I shared my 2nd gen experience. I even more or less agreed with your plans. It appears you think poly is somehow markedly softer that delrin and therefore less NVH. You say poly has no issues. None of that is true based on my experience and what I have learned from engineers, but it appears your mind is made up, confirmation bias and all. What you want to do will work fine for you, like I said there are many ways to skin a cat. A car built with poly bushings will handle better than stock rubber bushings.
 

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say no to poly bushings in control arms.

I like plan A, its a common plan we use around here. Rebuild those lowers with delrin based bushings (global west, ridetech, PTFB). Get uppers with delrin based bushings, like GW, UMI, PTFB, DSE or others. Tall upper ball joint is a good addition. Good shocks and correct springs make the over all package.
This ++. For your intended street usage - this is the ideal solution for a good handling ride that will eliminate that floatiness and tramlining you experience without going overboard on parts you really don't need on the street.

HTF could I talk about user errors? i wasn't there or even know the applications in questions, the parts used, other changes made, etc.

Technically any bushing that is harder than what you replaced will raise NVH to some degree, even harder durometer rubber bushings. My experience installing higher quality bushings utilizing delrin on a number of street cars has been very positive with excellent ride and wear characteristics. Conversely I have removed many cold flowed/distorted poly bushings and body mounts over the years. But I get my anecdotal evidence in actual 2nd gens is not as strong as anecdotal evidence from import guys. In reality, your shock & spring selection and tire selection and sizing have a much bigger impact to NVH than any of this. My 77 was butter smooth with 15s, got a bit rougher with 18s, nature of the beast. But she was quite comfy driving from NJ to NC in it, as was my buddy's 79 BBC Camaro with a similar setup but with 15s. Maybe not daily drivers, but certainly more mileage than 95% old cars ever get on their bi-weekly trip to cruise night. There might be a reason all the quality US made controls arms for our cars get delrin-based stuff while the budget and entry level stuff gets poly. Or not.

You asked for thoughts, I shared my 2nd gen experience. I even more or less agreed with your plans. It appears you think poly is somehow markedly softer that delrin and therefore less NVH. You say poly has no issues. None of that is true based on my experience and what I have learned from engineers, but it appears your mind is made up, confirmation bias and all. What you want to do will work fine for you, like I said there are many ways to skin a cat. A car built with poly bushings will handle better than stock rubber bushings.
I was going to add my own thoughts on this but BonzoHansen has stated it perfectly - at least from my experience. Delrin over poly - Delrin is far from race only and I actually prefer OEM rubber over poly in some situations. The amount of poly bushings I've removed in favour of Delrin or rubber would surprise most.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Well, I received the CPP control arms today. Seem like decent pieces. The bushings say "Polyurethane/Graphite" however these seem much harder than the poly I have messed with(they were gooey energy suspension)
These have a machined groove in them
 
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