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Discussion Starter #1
I know this question has been asked to death and I have searched through here and lots of other places but in 2020 I can not believe there isn't a definitive answer. I will try to no let my frustration get the best of me but here is the situation....
I am getting my 69 Camaro back on the road soon. I have basically a 350 with square port, straight plug heads, power steering (close ratio box from a Jeep Grand Cherokee) and a muncie 4 speed.

Seems like there should be a truck load of headers that are direct bolt in. I went the cheap route based upon a friend who did the same with his big block and ordered Jegs headers 555-300100 (yes I know oval ports listed on those) and no go for spark plug clearance. In fact Even with short plugs those headers were a WTF type of spark plug attempt. BTW I chose these as an attempt because of the on reviewer that wrote "good clearance for sprark plug wires " and "these headers were made for extra clearance".

I have searched over and over and get some serious confusion going on. Like the above review I quoted: HOW could they have "good clearance" while I didn't for the same headers?

So the question is.... Does anyone have recommended headers? I would prefer not to run shorty plugs because my engine builder recommends against them and I just seems so odd to not be able to find headers that clear full length plugs after 50 years.

Thank you for any advice.
Mike
 

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Look at
Doug's
or
Dynatech


I have Dynatech, but I run AFR angle plug heads,they say they fit straight plug cast iron heads also, they fit great and have a ball socket flange. And no clearance issues with the steering box.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Ok I just received and tried Doug's D368 headers and they are a no go. The heads are from blueprintengines HP8103. Unfortunately the spark plugs have a slight downward angle. So that makes the little indentation in the tubes for the 3&5 and 4&6 too high up the tubes. I only tried the drivers side because one they didn't fit I figured why waste the time on the other side. I guess that is where the wrinkle is, the slight downward angle of the spark plugs.
Mike
 

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wow, that sux.

Have you contacted Blueprint ?

If your engine builder built it with blueprint heads and told you not to use shorty plugs for some reason,what header does he recommend ?

And the D368 is a 1.75" maybe the smaller tubes would do it for you??
 

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Discussion Starter #5
wow, that sux.

Have you contacted Blueprint ?

If your engine builder built it with blueprint heads and told you not to use shorty plugs for some reason,what header does he recommend ?

And the D368 is a 1.75" maybe the smaller tubes would do it for you??
I will say some of this is me wanting to never do this again. This is the 2nd round of pulling the engine and now I have replaced the engine I was trying to match everything for best performance. I wanted the 1.75 header no only because they are pretty darn close to port matched but also because this engine will be around 700+ HP so I wanted things to be best breathing it could be.

I talked to BPE and they said they have a customer have good luck with the Hedman 68626 headers and the tech I talked to said 1 5/8 headers versus the 1 3/4 are not so much of a concern.

Oh and for the spark plugs. I just never liked them but more so on my last engine I seemed to have very bad luck running them, fouled / miss-firing even when not fouled, etc. So I spent a lot of time reading and reading and discussing with a lot of people and most agreed I should try and find a set of headers now that will fit the full length headers and only go shorty if needed.

I guess it is on to the shorter length headers with a smaller tube diameter!

Thank you for the convo.

Mike
 

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700 horse with a 350, what heads are you using? If you are really making that kind of power treat the engine right and have a good custom header built. They will cost a fair amount more but will fit right and leave plenty of clearance.

I had Lemons build headers for my motor (I had no other choice, no one makes SB2.2 headers for a Camaro chassis), and they are works or art. Tight under the car, plenty of clearance all around the motor, plugs, etc. And this is with a 2" to 1 7/8" stepped primary.
I highly recommend them, but built to your spec, coated and shipped was about $1800 when I had mine done. But worth every penny.

I always have just run NGK plugs, they are shorter it seems and they work great.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
700 horse with a 350, what heads are you using? If you are really making that kind of power treat the engine right and have a good custom header built. They will cost a fair amount more but will fit right and leave plenty of clearance.

I had Lemons build headers for my motor (I had no other choice, no one makes SB2.2 headers for a Camaro chassis), and they are works or art. Tight under the car, plenty of clearance all around the motor, plugs, etc. And this is with a 2" to 1 7/8" stepped primary.
I highly recommend them, but built to your spec, coated and shipped was about $1800 when I had mine done. But worth every penny.

I always have just run NGK plugs, they are shorter it seems and they work great.
It was dynoed at 521 HP NA. BUT I will be losing quite a bit at altitude where I live. I have my roots 6-71 from my old engine ready to go and it'll start out pretty neutral until the tune is figured out and the engine is fully broken in. Then slowly overdrive the 6-71 in a few steps until things are figured out. The end goal is to hit that 700 HP number. If I get there I don't know but that was part of the reason I was trying to do as much to the breathability as I could.

I will admit I never heard of Lemons headers until today and I did look them up. They are pretty pricey.

I am thinking now that I am getting a little anxious to get this car out of the garage where it has sat broken for over a year and 4 months that I just might accept any off the shelf headers that will fit and get this car going before summer is over.

Mike
 

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Since you are going with forced induction I would for sure not go smaller than 1 3/4" whatever you do. 1 5/8" - 1 3/4" with the NA power would be fine.

Header design does matter if you are after more than just getting the bad air out, you can get decent off the shelf headers, but having a set built to your needs is the best way if you can. The fit and access is going to be better also.

What cylinder heads are they? Are they difficult to find headers for for some reason?

Lemons is about the only manufacturer I know of that will build a custom header in a mock up for a stock style chassis at their location and ship it to you. It's a custom header without leaving your car at a shop. Headers built on for/on your car will be more than that.
They are really pricey, but really worth the money if you can justify spending it.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The heads are the ones I have listed above blueprintengines HP8103. I am having a little bit of a tough time justifying the cost of Lemons but that might change depending on how far I get down this road without a less expensive solution. This might be a life learning experience like don't buy harbor freight tools and expect top of the line so I just may be able to justify them later but the other $1000 could really be used somewhere else. 😄
Mike
 

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I know what you mean, lol. Good luck to you!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Ok here I am back again...
I did a final test fit on the D368 headers on the passenger side before I returned the dougs headers. They would fit on the passenger side if I has about another 1/8th to 1/4 of an inch otherwise they hit/rub on the floorboards. So those headers are packed up and ready to go back.

To give as complete of a picture as possible.
I have the blueprintengines heads, HP8103 (65cc square port rounded in corners).
8" harmonic balancer
Frame mounts: LH - 3945507, RH - 3945508
Motor mounts energy suspension 3.1117.
Total height of Motor mounts and frame mounts:
LH 3 5/8"
RH 3 3/4"
Power steering
Muncie transmission with SB ZBar (AKA Bellcrank - Hate that name as it isn't too common in my world)

Hedman said plain and simple: "Sorry, we do not have anything for that"
I talked to Jegs and they couldn't find anything that would work.
Dynatech said to look at a few of theirs:
740-11510, 740-21510, 740-11610, 740-21610

Blueprint said to use Hedman 68626 but I wish to have a full length header so these are going to be my back-up attempt after trying one of the dynatechs.
So while I wait for other parts I am going to spend a bit of time today continuing my reading to see if there is anyone out there that has my combo and had headers work for them.

Mike
 

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I have Dynatech, no clearance problems with PS or anywhere else, but I use a shorty plug for #5. Dynatech has ball and socket style connectors at the collector and I wouldn't have anything else; never a leak.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I have Dynatech, no clearance problems with PS or anywhere else, but I use a shorty plug for #5. Dynatech has ball and socket style connectors at the collector and I wouldn't have anything else; never a leak.
From your name I am going to conclude you have a Z28 and might be using the same mounts? i.e. tall mounts because of a bigger balancer? What model headers do you have?
Thank you,
Mike
 

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From your name I am going to conclude you have a Z28 and might be using the same mounts? i.e. tall mounts because of a bigger balancer? What model headers do you have?
Thank you,
Mike

Yes, mine is a Z/28, 8" balancer. I have Dynatech number 740-11210 ceramic coated headers. Unfortunately, Dynatech no longer makes the coated version and only makes stainless headers for SBC as a replacement for roughly twice the price which makes no sense to me since I think they still make ceramic coated models for BBC and LS applications. You might be able to find a used set if you don't want to lay out the big bucks for stainless. The reducer cones they provide to connect to the downstream exhaust pipes are top quality stainless and like I said, never a leak even though I've disconnected and reconnected them multiple times.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yes, mine is a Z/28, 8" balancer. I have Dynatech number 740-11210 ceramic coated headers. Unfortunately, Dynatech no longer makes the coated version and only makes stainless headers for SBC as a replacement for roughly twice the price which makes no sense to me since I think they still make ceramic coated models for BBC and LS applications. You might be able to find a used set if you don't want to lay out the big bucks for stainless. The reducer cones they provide to connect to the downstream exhaust pipes are top quality stainless and like I said, never a leak even though I've disconnected and reconnected them multiple times.
I found a set of those headers at a place that says they still have them but their website seems a bit hokey. From a single email with support for dynatech they said to try the 740-11510, 740-21510, 740-11610 or 740-21610. Based upon their numbering it appears they may have redesigned them again. I sent them a couple of reply emails asking for more info and no reply.
I wonder if I should take a risk on the 740-11210 headers. If that company still has them I am pretty sure they are not returnable.

Mike
 

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Looks to me like the 740-11510 is the stainless replacement for the coated ones I have, at least the specs look the same. I can't tell from a picture if the tube configuration is the same but if Dynatech says they will clear the PS on a '69 then they should. You need to decide what size pipes you want and whether a 2.5 or 3 inch reducer. Unless you're running a BB you probably don't want the large pipes. If you found a set of the 11210's but think the seller is a bit sketchy (check the internet for posted problems, BBB, etc.) then pay with a credit card and if there is a problem you can charge them back through the credit card as a last resort and let the credit card company deal with the bad seller. Attached is a photo of how mine fit at the PS box. Yes it's very tight, but they don't contact the PS and I did not need to massage them with a hammer to make them fit. You can also see why I need to run a shorty plug on #5. If you're going to pop $1k for stainless I'd check other sources. Some will not fit the Z Bar, some have problems near the starter or PS box etc. Mine are 7 years old and still look new. I also use Percy's Vibe Lock header bolts and have not needed to retorque them at all from the original installation. I did not use the gaskets provided with the headers (they may be great) and instead used a set of multi layer dead soft aluminum gaskets which have been leak proof so far.
264909
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Looks to me like the 740-11510 is the stainless replacement for the coated ones I have, at least the specs look the same. I can't tell from a picture if the tube configuration is the same but if Dynatech says they will clear the PS on a '69 then they should. You need to decide what size pipes you want and whether a 2.5 or 3 inch reducer. Unless you're running a BB you probably don't want the large pipes. If you found a set of the 11210's but think the seller is a bit sketchy (check the internet for posted problems, BBB, etc.) then pay with a credit card and if there is a problem you can charge them back through the credit card as a last resort and let the credit card company deal with the bad seller. Attached is a photo of how mine fit at the PS box. Yes it's very tight, but they don't contact the PS and I did not need to massage them with a hammer to make them fit. You can also see why I need to run a shorty plug on #5. If you're going to pop $1k for stainless I'd check other sources. Some will not fit the Z Bar, some have problems near the starter or PS box etc. Mine are 7 years old and still look new. I also use Percy's Vibe Lock header bolts and have not needed to retorque them at all from the original installation. I did not use the gaskets provided with the headers (they may be great) and instead used a set of multi layer dead soft aluminum gaskets which have been leak proof so far.
View attachment 264909
Looks good and I just noticed something else from your sig line. You have a Magnum in there too?
You are where I intent to be after this engine has some miles on it. For this year (IF I get the darn thing on the road) I plan on babying it and then early next consider the t56 magnum.
Now comes a few other questions.... If you have the t56 did you have to cut your tunnel? Also the frame mounts and motor mounts also plan into the header questions BUT also come into play with the magnum. IF you have the same tall and narrow frame and motor mounts, your 8" balancer, and a magnum without cutting your tunnel I am in awe.
In fact I used the frame stands and motor mounts and solid body bushings because of those two factors: 8" balancer and intention to go the a magnum within a year. BUT I never thought I would have issues with the headers.

BTW I contacted the site and they said "Oh that is our old website that we don't update" even though it looks like I could process an order on that site. (I went as far as the payment section where it allowed me to put in a credit card #, but I didn't finish the transaction)

I will give holley (about hooker headers) and the one other website I contacted until this afternoon and if I don't hear back from them I think I will order the dynatechs but I am looking at the 740-11610 because of the supercharger I am going to be running. What the hay if they don't fit under the passenger floor pan I may have to default to some cheap headers that fit on the drivers side and mostly on the passenger side and have them cut and re-welded for floor pan clearance.

If possible could you confirm the frame and motor mounts you used (short and wide or tall and narrow)? I had a 1/2 hour conversation with a guy at energy suspension and he was trying to convince me frame and motor mounts do not lower or raise the engine just center it differently in the frame. I couldn't agree with that except in the case of the big block versus small block mounts as the big block mounts (which I do not have any longer) moves the engine over to the passenger side.

Mike
 

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I have Dynatech also,
740-21310 the coated old non-stainless ones,no longer available.

raised port AFR angle plug heads. good clearance everywhere,even the Z bar.
Spark plug changes no problem.
264914
 

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Yes I have the '69 style tall mounts. As for the Magnum, I tried using the minimal cut approach, but subsequently after driving it for awhile I decided to cut the tunnel the full length of the trans to get my driveline angles where I wanted them. I use 5th gear a lot which helps with my low torque 302 around town (close ratio trans, 0.83 ratio 5th). The magnum is a great trans. Overdrive trans is hands down the best mod for these cars.
 

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The BPE HP8103 heads are their CNC ported heads and I would have thought that they would have had a raised exhaust port, up to 3/8" like the similar AFR head. But, their website claims they have a standard exhaust port location which surprised me. The standard H8002K heads, which I have, have a raised exhaust port which I confirm with an email to BPE.
 
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