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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Some threads lately that refer to heat soaked starters and the use of remote Ford style relays, sometime referred to as solenoids. It's a big relay.

On GM starters this also works as a relay. Key turned on>solenoid kicks in to engage drive gear into flywheel or flex plate>contact disc connects batt power to the starter motor.

Ford style uses a remote mounted relay that when ignition is in start position it simultaneously provides batt power to the solenoid and the starter motor. This is usually done by installing a jumper from the Batt terminal to the S terminal. No reason to run a separate wire from the relay to the starter.

GM Batt Pos goes directly to starter.
Ford Batt Pos goes to relay and from relay to starter.

Both styles accomplish the same thing. When ignition is in start position you get full Batt power to the starter motor.

Installing a Ford Style relay on a GM starter will help IF the Contact Disc is not making good enough contact in the solenoid to provide full Batt power to the starter motor. This is a band aid. It's not fixing the problem.

If you have a starter issue blamed on this mysterious "heat soak" you really have an issue with the starter or the wiring.

If you have full Batt via the Purple wire to the S terminal it is most likely the contacts in the starter solenoid are bad. This can happen over time due to arcing each time the starter is engaged. Pull it a part and clean the contact surfaces or replace the solenoid.

If you don't have 12v to the S terminal. Ignition switch, NSS switch or the wire itself are bad.

So a guy adds a Ford Style relay. The purple that was on the GM solenoid now goes to the Ford relay. When ignition is in start position the relay is closed and Batt power goes to the solenoid By doing so he has bypassed the solenoid to get power to the starter motor. He has not addressed the root cause.

The common goal for both styles is to get full Batt power to the starter motor.

The Myth

"when the engine is hot it won't start. when it cools off it starts"

Degraded wiring and bad contacts are being affected by the heat caused resistance.

So cure the problem don't just treat the symptom.

There is a place for Ford Style Relays on our cars. For me I use one when I relocate the Battery to the trunk so the long positive cable is only hot when starting.
 

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After installing the extra solenoid, the OE solenoid still has to have the S terminal wired for engaging the starter drive.
Unless I missed it... Over 40 Thing.
Its another route, shorter in wire resistance, in getting full battery current to starter motor.
Clean all terminals thus reducing resistance.
Heat will increase resistance in a wire/terminal connection by both ambient temperature and current drawn through the connection.
 

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In the early 70's, I was a parts guy at a large service garage. We got to see every kind of problem you can imagine. Starter problems were seen quite often on low mileage large engined cars that were mostly driven on short trips by little old ladies and little old men. Starters, batteries and battery cables were replaced repeatedly with the best that could be found. Problems persisted. Heat soak was blamed, but these cars didn't have headers or modified exhaust. One of our customers that previously had starting problems need his engine rebuilt due to having a wing nut dropped into the carb and passing through the engine that caused valve and piston problems. The engine was severely carboned up. Carbon in the combustion chambers, carbon on the back side of the valves, and worst of all, carbon in the ring grooves and behind the rings that kept the rings dragging on the cylinder walls. After the rebuild, the customer no longer had any starter problems, even the hottest part of summer. After much discussion, one sales rep suggested putting Blaster in the oil of problem child cars to see if the starter problems could be reduced. We put a can of Blaster in the oil at no charge and let the customers drive as they normally did, then changed their oil the next time and put another can of Blaster in along with the normal oil. At least 90% of the cars that previously had starter drag problems no longer had the problem. We were sure that the mechanic in a can had loosened up the carbon behind the rings that had been causing the ring drag problem. So, instead of the repeated changing of everything when we ran into a hot start problem, we put a can of Blaster in the oil, and just changed whatever part of the starting system was suspect.
 
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After installing the extra solenoid, the OE solenoid still has to have the S terminal wired for engaging the starter drive.
Unless I missed it... Over 40 Thing.
Some times a jumper went between the top solenoid post on the starter and the S terminal. Ford products used Delco style starters on many 429 and 460 engines and that is how they were set up. Same normal small solenoid on the fenderwell and the Delco style solenoid mounted on the starter that operated the starter drive.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
This is usually done by installing a jumper from the Batt terminal to the S terminal. No reason to run a separate wire from the relay to the starter.
From above
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Its another route, shorter in wire resistance, in getting full battery current to starter motor.
Actually using the Ford relay means longer cables from the Battery to the Starter motor. Although with a jumper from the Batt term on the starter to the S term you get full battery power to the solenoid rather than the long purple wire from batt to the ignition switch, NSS and then to the S term
 
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I think a better question is unless you are doing a numbers restoration, why use the original style starter at all.

Gear reduction mini starters are readily available and I think standard on everything now. It's kind of like using a mechanical cooling fan, sure it works and so did the wagon wheel.

If your wiring is good just ditch the giant old starter all together.

With all due respect.
 

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I think a better question is unless you are doing a numbers restoration, why use the original style starter at all.

Gear reduction mini starters are readily available and I think standard on everything now. It's kind of like using a mechanical cooling fan, sure it works and so did the wagon wheel.

If your wiring is good just ditch the giant old starter all together.

With all due respect.
Why?


Why not just rebuild the original starter? Rebuilding a Delco 10MT starter is quick, cheap and easy.

The 10MT starter was strong enough to turn over high compression engines 50 years ago, so why replace it with something that isn't needed?
 

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When i was running my '68 at the track with open headers and 90+ degree days, I never had a problem using the OE wiring and a GM hi-torque starter - identified by the copper extension between the solenoid and starter motor terminal.
Worked every time when asked.
 

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Why?


Why not just rebuild the original starter? Rebuilding a Delco 10MT starter is quick, cheap and easy.

The 10MT starter was strong enough to turn over high compression engines 50 years ago, so why replace it with something that isn't needed?
My point exactly, it works fine. So did the wash board, the wagon wheel and stone tools. I never said it was the wrong thing it just doesn't make sense to me.

Chrysler was using the revolutionary new-fangled reduction starter in the 60's. The new ones are an even better smaller, lighter package.
 

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My point exactly, it works fine. So did the wash board, the wagon wheel and stone tools. I never said it was the wrong thing it just doesn't make sense to me.

Chrysler was using the revolutionary new-fangled reduction starter in the 60's. The new ones are an even better smaller, lighter package.

So, spend over 100 buck for a cheapie no-name mini-starter, $200-300+ for more of a "name brand" starter or under 50 bucks for all the parts and rebuild the Delco starter yourself. Not sure the logic of buying a mini starter.


to each your own......:beers:
 

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So, spend over 100 buck for a cheapie no-name mini-starter, $200-300+ for more of a "name brand" starter or under 50 bucks for all the parts and rebuild the Delco starter yourself. Not sure the logic of buying a mini starter.


to each your own......:beers:
Indeed, to each their own and it's all good. :beers:

But....:wink2: you can get a factory GM reduction starter from a junkyard really cheap probably, but even a decent quality aftermarket one are not much more than $100. Up to $250 for a really high end one.

They are smaller, lighter and more efficient. If you have ever installed a mini starter on a motor with headers while laying on your back you will appreciate the light weight and tiny size.
That's reason enough for me to spend another $50-$60 on a car that most people consider a luxury these days anyway. Not too many Camaros used as daily transportation to a minimum wage job anymore (done that...), requiring budget repairs.

As always there are many ways to skin a cat. And for the record, I'm a rebuild it first guy if it makes sense.
 

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I'm another one who says (and recently posted) heat soak is a myth so I agree w/ the OP...
I don't see ministarters as being an improvement. I tend to think the mfgrs wanted to save weight and money so they introduced them. One thing they don't seem to like is prolonged cranking.
The biggest point to all this is to figure out the actual problem, not just start throwing parts at it, and not to simply cry heat soak. Read the recent thread on this subject and try to find a voltage measurement or anyone but me saying do some troubleshooting. There are none as of yesterday.
 

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I think a better question is unless you are doing a numbers restoration, why use the original style starter at all.

Gear reduction mini starters are readily available and I think standard on everything now. It's kind of like using a mechanical cooling fan, sure it works and so did the wagon wheel.

If your wiring is good just ditch the giant old starter all together.

With all due respect.



I'm gonna chime in and agree with Sean, I too had a starter problem about 10 years ago, resistance, growler, header heat whatever. Tried a heat shield from Thermo-tec to wrap around the starter, then the solenoid heat shield.......nothing worked.

I then decided to bite the bullet and try a mini hi torque starter for about a 120.00.
It solved the problem. I did not have a wiring issue cause I haven't to this day do anything other than change to the mini starter. Everyone is entitled to do whatever they want to fix their problem as they see needed, sometimes we just want the problem fixed and if it costs a few bucks more so be it.
 

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Ben - Delaware - 67 Camaro
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on a somewhat related note, i'm still using a stock starter for the simple fact that could not find a staggered bolt pattern mini-starter from any of the catalogue guys when i was putting my motor together. my block is a '74 400 SBC and the starter bolt holes are staggered as opposed to the two holes side by side. does anyone have a good reference to a quality mini starter with a staggered bolt pattern?
 

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Ben - Delaware - 67 Camaro
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oh, and BTW, i'm running long tube headers, 11.5:1 compression and never have had a problem with my stock starter. works everytime. i'd just like the weight reduction and cleaner look if i could find a good mini to work
 

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Myth, maybe I don't know. I don't claim to be a smart man. My tow truck has a big block like I'm sure many other trucks have. It builds a crazy amount of heat under the hood. It came factory with 1/2 in fuel lines, and a huge pump mounted on the passenger side of the engine. The wrecker builder put the pump on, but GM put the fuel lines on. GM also put a hood on it that has 4 Rowe's if functional louvers. To help control the heat. Yes this was a GM thing. The same hood came on very heavy service trucks , even some ambulances. From day one it has had starter issues. In 1985 the dealership put the Ford style system on. This truck was one year old at the time. They said something about a service sheet on the problem. I never saw or asked to see the sheet, just wanted the truck to function. It fixed the Myth in my truck. I also don't step on cracks in the sidewalk with hopes that my mother's back will be ok, and to some point do believe in ghost. I don't know if the sidewalk crack thing is a myth or not, but my mother is very old , and has no back problems. Myth? maybe, but they both seem to be working. Rip my post, ignore my post, whatever. And that's all I have to say about that.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Keith. I believe the truck issue was a designed fix to resolve a wiring issue not heat related
 
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