[NC69RS]

I am having a problem with my 69 camaro. When I turn into a turn at normal speed the front end grabs and I have to turn the wheel the other way to keep from crossing the center line or running off the road depending on if it is a left or right turn.. The steering is extremely quick. From what I have read this is called oversteer.

Alighnment specs:
camber: driver side -1 deg./ passenger side -1.25 deg.
caster: 3 deg. positive
Toe in: 1/16 / 1/16 1/8 overall

When I first had the car aligned it would dart and wander, When I took it back he set the toe in again with the front suspension slightly raised which has cured this part of the problem. His reasoning was that I was losing the toe in with slight suspension travel upward.

Recently went to 245/45/17 front tires and 275/40/18 rear tires
Tire pressure is 38 psi cold in all tires.

The steering box is from a Iroc Z. I have the long pitman arm (5.8)
The steering arms measure 5 3/4 from the center of the spindle to the center of the tie rod bolt. The tires contact the frame both directions in just over 2 turns of the steering wheel.

I recently lowered the car 1.5" in the front and 1" in the back. I have noticed that the front sway bar is now angled up. Will this cause any ill effects?

What can I do next? Is this a common problem?

Thanks in advance
Bobby

 

[davidpozzi]

Do you have stock springs, and anti-roll bars?
Do you have traction bars?

Oversteer is VERY unusual.
David

 

[NC69RS]

I have traction bars, and a front only sway bar 1". The front springs are moroso trick springs. I am converting the car from street and strip.

It's hard to explain, but the car will turn and hold a line very well until it reaches a certain point then it over reacts and I have to correct, Quickly!!!

I used to have 15x4 "skinnies" on the front with 165r 15 tires so thought I may just need to get used to it handling so much different with the wider tires.

Bobby

 

[davidpozzi]

Many traction bars will cause oversteer, especially with a soft front suspension. Wider front tires make it worse.
First step would be to get a 1" front bar on it, then if you still aren't happy, look at the rear suspension and consider replacing the traction bars with properly designed leaf springs.

David

 

[sc68z28]

Tire pressure is 38 psi cold in all tires.

I recently lowered the car 1.5" in the front and 1" in the back.
Bobby

Take at least 10psi out of the rear tires, try 26psi in the rear.
Was it aligned after it was lowered? ---Bill.

 

[NC69RS]

David, it has a solid 1" front sway bar on it now. The end links need to be cut to have it parallel to the ground though.

Yes, I just had it alighned.

 

[davidpozzi]

The anti-roll bar arms should be level, but often lowered cars can't quite get there because if you shorten the links too much they will bind when they swing side to side.

Do your traction bars clamp to the spring on the front? That really makes a Camaro oversteer, it turns your rear axle in to a huge anti-roll bar! Also check your rear bumpstops for hitting, you might be bottoming on the rear bumpstop when the car leans.
David

 

[sc68z28]

Bobby, you can buy shorter link ends at most any parts house. I don't think that is going to help your prob. Like David said watch for bind.
With a wide tire, I had never run more than 26psi in the rear tires, and they still always wear in the middle. My brother runs 14psi in the rears on his S10 PU. ---Bill.

 

[pdq67]

David,

Just over two turns locked!!!

He's way to quick in the gearbox imho!!

I think he need's the shorter pitman arm as well as probably longer spindle arms.. Mine lock's at 3.5 turns w/ the longest pitman arm and shortest spindle arms and is fine!!

And I always just throttled my car hard when my traction-bars locked up my rear when I was making a hard FAST turn at speed!!! And it sure wasn't unexpected like he's saying his is...

pdq67

 

[NC69RS]

Thanks guys,

David, The traction bars do have a u bolt on the front of them but it is not under load. I did notice that the traction bars are touching the leaf springs about half way between the rear end mount and the front spring eye. I will take a picture tonight. I would like to get rid of the traction bars but don't want any wheel hop. I had thought about going with a Caltrac set-up.

Bill, I will try to lower the rear tire pressure.

Pdq67, I had thought about slowing the steering with a pitman arm or steering arm change, but was hoping I could find the culprit causing this first.

Bobby

 

[blue ss]

Bobby
Are you talking about long sweeping turns like off ramps?
Is your steering very easy to turn like one finger is all you need even parking?

 

[onovakind67]

The West Texas SCCA site has a helpful troubleshooting guide to steering problems:

http://www.wtrscca.org/tech.htm#problems

 

[NC69RS]

No, just turns in general. The steering is firm with decent feel and effort just very quick at a certain point.

Thanks for the link.

Bobby

 

[Mark SC&C]

Many traction bars will cause oversteer, especially with a soft front suspension. Wider front tires make it worse.
First step would be to get a 1" front bar on it, then if you still aren't happy, look at the rear suspension and consider replacing the traction bars with properly designed leaf springs.

David

I`m with David. Especially the part about the traction bars. Sounds to me like at a certain degree of roll they`re binding the springs and shooting the effective spring rate through the roof, instant oversteer. Mark SC&C

 

[davidpozzi]

The Global West leaf springs are made very stiff in the front half, no traction bars are needed with them. Leaving out any leaf pads helps too.

1969 power steering boxes used variable ratio which get's faster as you turn, if you have this box it could make the car more sensitive in turns, but I'm convinced something else like the traction bars or bottoming is the "real" cause. I'm assuming you don't have a tire going down or something loose.

Another thing that can cause oversteer is old tires on the front and brand-new tires on the rear.
David

 

[NC69RS]

Here are a few pictures of the traction bars, front sway bar, and the car.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/bf69cam/album/576460762391506206

 

[pdq67]

Chicane can also hook you up w/ some VERY good CUSTOM springs too, but they may be too pricey??

Oh, and btw, your slappers are set just about right!!

Like I said, I always throttled mine around in a tight high-speed turn..

But back then, my car was SO stiff that it would ALMOST skip sideways at speed turning a fast 90 corner in town!!!

One turn, hit the throttle to kick her around and go around a corner and get on w/ it!!!

pdq67

 

[davidpozzi]

This pic really shows the problem. http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/YaOtDNwHvj18/__sr_/6603.jpg?tkn=phoFS5FBf66rGfY_&saveas=100_0319

When the car leans a little, no problem, when it leans more, the space between the front U bolt will be taken up and then the rear axle housing becomes a giant anti-roll bar.

Lowering blocks thicker than 1" can create problems for most leaf springs that are used without tracton bars. It gives the axle housing more leverage over the leaf and wheel hop can result much easier. A better solution is an optimum designed leaf spring like Global West sells. It will be flat when installed, and has a stiff forward half. Look up old posts by Chicane67, he has designed rear springs for first gen Camaros, and some members have installed them.

I see your front anti-roll bar arms, they look about normal, you can't shorten them more than that or you may see more severe angles as the suspension moves and resulting binding of the links.
David

 

[Rodder]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but his description doesn't like oversteer at all. How fast are you going / how tight is the turn? Is the rear end breaking loose, or is just like the steering is suddenly turned itself farther without the wheel moving? The description sounds like the latter, and that's either something loose in the steering or suspension (front or rear!), or a really bad geometry problem problem on the steering arms.

 

[NC69RS]

David, thanks for the help. For the short term I will raise or remove the u-bolts and see what happens.

Rodder, The rear is not breaking loose, but has the potential to if the steering is not quickly corrected. Its not turning farther on its own, but while slowing turning farther into a curve it will all at once grap and upset the car. So far, In 45 degree curves about 45 to 50 mph. I have not drove the car all that much since getting the new wheels/tires, brakes, and lowering it.

Bobby