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Discussion Starter #1
When I put my car back together, I had the stock radiator re-cored. My car was an original 327/210 with A/C. I used a new cast iron Miloden hi flow pump, and a 180 thermostat. When I am stopped in traffic for a really long time, the car starts to reach 210-220 temps. It is using the stock shroud and the stock clutch fan. Should I conside the aerostar or Mark VII fans setups, or what can i do to make sure the car could stay cool for a long sit still? Any help would be great. I have a brand new 160 therm in the garage if that will help the problem. I had actually heard that it may hurt the cause.

Dan

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67 Pro-touring Camaro-327, 9:1, Comp XE268 Cam, Perf. RPM Intake. 750 Holley, Sportsman II Heads, Ceramic coated headers, 700R4 trans, 17" Amer. Racing TT2's, 12" disc brakes, custom stereo, black with white stripes, cowl ind. hood.
 

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once the thermostat is open, it has no control over how hot the engine gets. it just sets the minimum running temp.
how long does it take to creep up? does it do it as you travel at highway speeds? could be any number of things. is the fan clutch working? that would be my guess. with the engine off, give the fan a spin. it should be hard to turn by hand and stop as soon as you let go. if it keeps spinning, it is shot. get a new one.

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1971 Nova(looks like 69 camaro from underneath!)
355sb, vortec heads, HOT cam,T-10 tranny, 3.70 gears 16X8" IROC wheels. 12" Corvette brakes on the way.
see pics here http://community.webshots.com/user/novaderrik
 

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Dan, I ran into the same problem and took the 180 degree hi flow thermostat out and went with the 160 degree hi flow by Robertshaw. Engine runs at 190 degrees now in the garage, at idle with an outside air temperature of 100 degrees. I've got a new 7 blade GM fan & GM fan clutch with stock shroud. Worked for me, it's an easy try.
Good Luck

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Drew

69' X-11 350, Turbo 350, Factory Air, PS, PB, 12 Bolt (410 gear) & NOT AN SS
 

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I would also check the top and bottom radiator hose. If they are old like a 1.5 years or more then change them out too. We took a friends car for a test drive and his hoses were closing up, causing his car to overheat. They hadn't been replaced in years. Some people only replace the hoses when they tears. But once they get bulgie they are no longer good. Same think with belts change them out at least once a year. And keep the old ones in the trunk for spare. This way when your new one tears you have a replacement to get you to where you were going. My wife thinks I'm a pack-rat, but I say you can never have to many spare parts. My son is always trying to make his car run faster and keeps on breaking stuff, so I have to have a lot of spare parts lying around.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Belts and hoses are brand new.

Drew- I will try the new therm., at least it is a quick change to see if it works.

Nova- It takes about 15-20 in stop and go driving. I haven't had it on the highway yet, but usually as long as the car is moving, it runs at 190 on 100 degree days. It's when I get caught in this whacked out traffic around here. I will test the fan, but am pretty sure it is working as it is supposed to.

It sounds like everyone things my current cooling system SHOULD be keeping it cool, no? I was worried that the fan/radiator/thermostat would need changing but it sounds like I should be able to make this work. Good! Any other opinions?


Dan

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67 Pro-touring Camaro-327, 9:1, Comp XE268 Cam, Perf. RPM Intake. 750 Holley, Sportsman II Heads, Ceramic coated headers, 700R4 trans, 17" Amer. Racing TT2's, 12" disc brakes, custom stereo, black with white stripes, cowl ind. hood.
 

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Sounds like an air flow problem and with a 160 stat you would be expecting the system to do more work than it's capable of. The stat sets the temp that the system starts and stops working at (coolant flow through the block and core). Running a 180 deg stat I think will optmize your systems efficency. If the system can't cool to below 160 the state opens and never closes after that. It's only doing half the job if it doesn't open and close often. It may seem to slow down the overheating at the first light but once the temps are up there is no advantage to the lower temp stat.

Looking at air flow, if the car cools back down when it's moving your fan isn't doing it's job. There are 2 kinds of clutch fans, thermal and non-thermal. You need to know which you have as each acts differently. The thermal free spins when the temp is low and as the temp rises it starts locking up so the engine can turn it faster. The non-thermal is tight at lower rpms (letting the engine turn it) and as the revs pick up it free spins, so at 1500 rpm it may be turning 1:1 but at 3000 rpm it may only be turning 1500. The non-thermal clutch will rob less hp but may not provide as much cooling power if the system is taxed already. I think you would benifit from a thermal clutch.

What kind of core was used when you had the rad re-cored? If it's more dense than the old it may need more pull to get the air through it than your fan is giving. The fact that you have AC can come into play as well. The AC core sits in front of the rad and puts more strain on the fan. Also fan placement in the shroud can be of importance here. Too far in or out of the shroud can have adverse effects also. Sorry I don't have a reall direct (you need this part) answer. So far just lots of info to mill over! All that said I shouldn't forget that initial timing being set too low can also have an effect on stop light temps. Check where it is at idle, I run 15-16 initial and don't have starting problems if your are at factort spec's (4 deg btdc I think) try bumping it up. I'd say 10-12 if your mill can handle the added advance driving down the road... Let us know what you find...



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...Dennis
"The '69, the '96 & the club"
 

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Dean, part numbers for fan & clutch for 69' small block with A/C

Fan # is 00393996 (18" diameter with 7 blades) this is a genuine GM replacement not original looking - the blades have more pitch than the original one did.

Fan clutch # is 12306569 or A/C Delco # 15-4218

You will also need 5/16" studs course/fine that are 1 1/4" long to install available from local auto parts store.

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Drew

69' X-11 350, Turbo 350, Factory Air, PS, PB, 12 Bolt (410 gear) & NOT AN SS

[This message has been edited by drew69 (edited 08-07-2002).]
 

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What is the diameter of your water pump Pulley? I changed from 7 inch to a 6 inch and it cured my heating problem while sitting in traffic.
 

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I think this could be a timing problem.Do you have your distributor advance connected to the correct vaccuum port? The port should have vacuum at idle. If this is not the issue, you may want to check the timing. Same thing happened to me at idle. I changed the thermostat a few times, purchased a high flow water pump, changed the fan, fan clutch, etc... Turned out to be the vaccuum advance.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I have the vaccum advanced connected to the ported vaccum source on my street avenger, per Holley's instructions. The timing is at 12 initial, and 35 total. It always ran good there, so I never messed with it. I would assume that if it were a timing or advance problem, I would have problems while driving as well as while sitting. It is wierd because I can cruise the car for any ammount of time at 70 degrees, it's when the temp starts to get around 100 outside that I run into the sitting problems.

Dennis, the core used is looks identical to the stock core when I took it in. I think that was a mistake, for the money, I should have bought an aftermarket aluminum radiator, and I may not be posting right now. As far as what type of fan, I am unsre. It is the same stock piece that came with the car. When I installed it, the fluid felt tight, so I thought it would be fine. I can spin it by hand when the car is off, does that tell you which it is. It does stop immediately when I stop spinning it, as novaderrik recommended, but it isn't THAT hard to turn by hand, nothing you would have to put any real effort into.

The shroud is bone stock, as is the fan and clutch, so the clearance should be the same as it always was. The fan is centered in the shroud, and looks like it is at the right depth compared to what I see on others cars.

SO, what could be causing this? Is it just the fact that my stock radiator may not be able to handle my beefed up motor? Could the clutch be bad and be causing these problems? It is more of a nusance(sp?) than anything. I don't usually drive the car on 100 degree days in heavy traffic, but it pisses me off that I couldn't if I wanted to. Any other help would be great.

Dan

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67 Pro-touring Camaro-327, 9:1, Comp XE268 Cam, Perf. RPM Intake. 750 Holley, Sportsman II Heads, Ceramic coated headers, 700R4 trans, 17" Amer. Racing TT2's, 12" disc brakes, custom stereo, black with white stripes, cowl ind. hood.
 

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When you checked your timing did you disconnect the vacuum hose and plug it with a golf tee or something similar? If you didn't do this to check your timing, I would try this and recheck the timing. If the timing reads the same as before, you may want to change the advance to the non ported vacuum. I really believe this sounds like a timing issue.

Eric
 

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Dan,

If your timing numbers are with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged then I would bump it up to 14 - 15 initial, that would give you 37 - 38 degs of total advance. Your 327 should be able to handle the added timing. Because the timing changes as you move up the rpm range you will have more advance at cruise speed than idle and that is why timing can effect engine temps at idle.

An alum rad may help but you should be able to get past this with a stock or re-cored rad. If you have a thermal fan clutch it will be easier to free wheel (spin) the fan when it's cool and as it heats up it should tighten up on you. I believe the factory used 195 deg stats in AC cars

Cfunk - even though 210 isn't a big problem, a car that runs 180 all day on the hyw should be able to stay below 195 at a stop light. These cars did it in the day without fancy mods, they should be able to do it today as well. The thing about the area Dan lives in is that it's going to be over 100 today in many areas but 15 miles away it may only get up to 75, there may even be coastal areas that don't reach 70 degs. It's just really comforting to have stable engine temps...

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...Dennis
"The '69, the '96 & the club"
 

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Discussion Starter #17
CFunk- As Dennis said, there isn't really a problem if that is considered noraml. The problem is, I have never sat long enough to see how high it will keep climbing. I usually turn off and take a less densely crowded street. I will double check the timing, and try to mess with that a little. Hopefully I can get it figured out before heading up to Tahoe for the Cool Sept. Days show. Dennis, you going to that one, any else? It would be great to meet some Team Camaro members.

Dan

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67 Pro-touring Camaro-327, 9:1, Comp XE268 Cam, Perf. RPM Intake. 750 Holley, Sportsman II Heads, Ceramic coated headers, 700R4 trans, 17" Amer. Racing TT2's, 12" disc brakes, custom stereo, black with white stripes, cowl ind. hood.
 

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Dan, I hate to beat an old horse to death, But! If your vacuum advance is not advancing the timing at idle, your engine will overheat AT IDLE ONLY. Changing the timing, to 14 or 15 when the vacuum advance is not working at idle, is not going to solve the problem. Cool weather will not help. A ported vacuum on a carb usually means that port offers no vacuum at idle. I would put the vacuum advance to the non-ported vacuum side of the carb and see if this works. I really think if you try this and set your timing your issue may be resolved. This is simple and costs nothing but a little of your time.
 

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I'm running vacuum advance off the port that doesn't pull any vacuum at idle right now and my 383 will idle all day in 100 deg heat and maybe it will hit 190 at tops. Stock water pump, re-cored rad with a modine core, the cheapest fan and non-thermal clutch I could find, a Mr Gasket (Robert Shaw) 180 deg stat, 16lb pressure cap and 70% water, 30% antifreeze.

Eric (stope4) there is no difference in advance that comes from the vacuum canister or mechanically built into the dist. Vacuum advance changes when a load is placed on an engine or the rpm changes. The advantage of having vacuum advance hooked to a vacuum source that pulls at idle is if your curve is such that you can't set the mechanical initial to 12-16 deg btdc without making the total advance go higher than the engine can tollerate.

Dan we are going to San Diego in sept, won't be able to make it to Tahoe... Gonna try to make it to Hot Aug Niles (17th) and maybe the Dublin FosterFreeze on the evening of the 31st.

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...Dennis
"The '69, the '96 & the club"
 
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