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To the seller it could mean anything from the engine being orig to the complete driveline being orig to everything from belts and hoses being orig. It's very subjective and I would like to think the major pieces are orig if someone claims matching numbers.

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...Dennis
"The '69, the '96 & the club"
 

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When I bought my 69 hard top, it was advertised as partial numbers matching.

Well, the 2.73 rear and PG tranny were orig but the engine had been swapped from a 6 cyl to a 327. So, I ask, what good is a numbers matching rear and tranny this case???

I don't care though as I LOVE my car and I'm doing a frame-off to build it the way I want it!

It's my car, right! ;)

Take care,
Rob
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sleepy-69:
I've learned "Numbers Matching" usaully does not mean "original drivetrain". It typically means that it has the correct casting numbers for that yr and model.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouldn't that be date correct but not matching numbers? In the case of an engine block it has to have the correct partial vin to be numbers matching. Going back to my orig post, some sellers take liberty with the term.
 

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I agree...the term has several definitions. Date codes and VIN's add to the confusion.

Some would say there's a diff between "numbers matching" and "original drivetrain".

If a 69 X-77 car has a 69 DZ-302 engine with the wrong date and VIN, is the engine "numbers mathching"?

Some would say yes...it has the correct engine casting and "matches"...others would say no, the date and VIN don't "match".

What if the block had the correct date code but wrong VIN. What if the block had been decked and there's no VIN?

In the end, pay little attention to what's said in an ad and do your own homework.

Buyer beware.
 

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I have a "numbers matching" '71 corvette.The last five digits of the "vin" # are stamped on the engine block. Can't recall right now, but I think there is another place on the vehicle that the "number" appears.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
OK now that you've got me thourghly confused... So most parts on a 1st gen camaro ect. are date coded and if these parts are the correct date code there is no real way to tell if they are original to a particular car or not. While other parts have a partial vin # stamped on them which will verify their originality. If this is correct which parts have the partial vin # stamped on? Please bear with me I'm not stupid, just uninformed. Anyway I love this stuff and appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge. Thanks again.

[This message has been edited by dzjim (edited 06-07-2002).]
 

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If this is correct which parts have the partial vin # stamped on? --- The factory stamped the engine block and transmission case with a partial VIN. Parts installed on the engine (heads, alternator, water pump, etc.) as a general rule will precede the assembly date of the motor located on the pad at the right front of the block. And as another general rule, all part/assembly dates precede the build date on the trim tag (although exceptions exist to every rule).


So most parts on a 1st gen camaro ect. are date coded and if these parts are the correct date code there is no real way to tell if they are original to a particular car or not. --- As well as the appropriate casting # for a particular application, that is correct and block/VIN stampings can be duplicated as well.

I've followed both your posts (I have a 69 Z, also) and from the #'s you gave, you have a car that has/had some neat options. From the info, the rear axle has been changed. Are there other parts you are concerned about? Was the car represented as #'s match? This site is here to help.



[This message has been edited by Ed Ernst (edited 06-07-2002).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thank you Ed. This site has already been a big help. This site is like an interactive book and you guys being, the author of this book amaze me with your knowledge. To answer your questions, yes Ed the car was sold as matchin #s. I found the car on Hemmings. Heres how the ad read.

FOR SALE CAMARO: 1969 Z-28, hugger orange, white stripes, black interior, power steering, brakes, console with gauges, 8000 rpm tach, spoilers, bumper gaurds, cowl induction, tinted glass, AM radio, numbers match, excellent restored, real Z-28 $xxxxx PH xxx-xxx-xxxx

When I spoke to the man on the phone I asked specifically was the block, heads, intake, carb, tranny and rearend original to the car? He informed me they were. I now know the tranny and rearend are wrong for this car. I have the # off of the front of the block (VO211DZ). Where is the # with the partial vin located on the block, heads, intake and carb? Are there other #s and locations I should check and if so where?
Don't get me wrong this a beautiful car and I'm sure it's a Z but I feel as if I was mislead. I'm still in touch with the guy and hoping to work it out. Thanks again for your help.
 

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The location of the V0211DZ is the head pad. Somewhere in December68/January69 the partial VIN was moved from the head to above the oil filter. Since your block is Feb 11, 1969 look above the oil filter. It's a tough place to get a good look in there. It might be dirty,etc. Some folks have cleaned it up and used some white paint to highlight the #s there, so they can be read easier.

[This message has been edited by Silver69 (edited 06-08-2002).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Looking right above the oil filter there are three lines of #s
371
386
02N
My vin is 124379N612461
The #s on the block read in the order I gave but upside down with the 371 # being on the bottom. It doesn't seem right to me. what do you think?
 

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Just to show how there are exceptions, my October built LM1 350 has the numbers above the oil filter area with my head number of T1019HS alone on the decking behind the alternator. Mine is an RS so perhaps the Z's were totally different but it is very interesting to follow all the different stories in this site on exceptions.
My gut says that yes you were misrepresented by the seller but only a good lawyer versed in advertising fraud could comment on your options. Should you turn around to sell that Z, when you know the true facts, if you dont disclose them, you also would be fraudulent.
Its a scary circle of information. Is 'buyer be ware' still in place at all? Perhaps, but a seller does have obligations of truth if they were aware of the 'non' numbers matching items. Maybe he 'thought' they were original because the guy he bought it from told him that...and on and on.
See if the seller feels any obligation to making it right. Its only dollars and yet a sympathetic judge in small claims court might side with you and it would cost the seller more than if you and he come to an agreement of 'lost value' and he writes you a check.
Keep us informed as this is happening more and more with ebay and henning type selling.
Good luck
click

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69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,3.08 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS
 

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Matching numbers should be just as it sounds - any part that is stamped with a VIN or partial VIN should MATCH the vehicle VIN. Unfortunately, many people corrupt the definition to whatever best suits their purpose, for their own financial gain.

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1970 mostly original
307,TH350
F41
 

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click,

The numbers and letters on your Engine Pad T1019HS are the Plant/Date/Engine Code not the Head Numbers. The Casting numbers for the Head's are underneath the Valve Cover's. Should be the same position for all 1969 V8 Camaro's regardless Z28 or non Z28.

Bob R

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1973 Z28 Original owner
1971 RS Z28 in Restoration
 

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DZJIM...are you sure you are looking in the right place ? The surface is rough cast and you have to be under the car looking up. It is on a Vertical surface that faces the drivers side of the car. The rear edge of that surface is machined for the bellhousing to bolt against. You usually need a very good imagination to see the #'s.
 

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If you have access to or a copy of J. MacNeish's "1969 Z28 SS Fact Book", page 22 shows the two VIN locations on the motor.

[This message has been edited by Ed Ernst (edited 06-08-2002).]
 
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