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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ok, here is the deal, i got hired buy a guy who lives in my town to check out his car for him.. Here is the low down on the car, it is a 70 roadrunner, 440 six pack with a 4 spd and a 8.3/4 rear probally a 3.42 ish rear posi..he bought this car from nashville, tn two years ago off of ebay and drove it back to hendersonville, nc ..a 600 plus mile trip..the car did fine, a little under powered he said but did good..since he bought the car he has installed msd 6sl set up..its had problems starting back up..and he has replaced the carb set up with a 3 2bbl demon set up which i cant freaking stand??..all the problem is - it is under powered???..--what is initial timing suppose to be at and total timing at??--(7-8 initial and 32 total??)..the carbs seem to be dialed in and responsive..the car starts back up when hot and does run ok and will pull a hill but is 50% under powered??..advice??..the secondaries are working and coming in...my gut instinct on the car is that somebody just dropped in a motor out of a rv and put a cam in it??..the car looks and sounds great and is detailed good but the engine is not original to the car??.(1)i guess the first thing to do is check the timing(2)check the carbs to make sure they are dialed in and the throttle is adjusted ok(3)run the numbers off the block to see what it is...i wonder if someone has the timing at the timing chain 2 degrees back??..this guy has a ton of coin hanging around and he is kinda wanting me to tell him that he needs a moto,r so he can buy a 440 from indy for 8500.00 and dump it in there..he has his normal mopar guys that work on his car, he just wanted an outside honest opinion on his car from somebody that would shoot him straight..i drove up to his house sunday in my 67 chevelle ss!! oh yeah, she was looking good and wasnt under powered(lol)..hahaha..had to rub it in to the mopar guys a little!!
 

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Put a GM 502 crate motor in it. It will run awesome then... Keep the six pack set up though, would want it to be Bud set up of course...
Dont pick on them with the Chevelle... Hurts their feelings...
 

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The Road Runner uses a 383 short block and 440 heads and intake as delivered from Chrysler. Camshaft wasn't very big, but a step above stock. A Mopar Perf '509 cam would wake it up, kindda.

One thing Chrysler did was to cast the CID on the side of the block, you might look to make sure its not a 361 CID.
Check the dashboard for broken padding - every fast shift to 3rd has your middle finger smashed.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
this casting says 440 ho or hp on the top side by the dist, flat part of the intake on top of the water pump area??
 

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Restamp, I bet. Pass side of the block casting numbers shows original CID.

Remind me later this evening and I'll check my 1974 Motors Manual.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Restamp, I bet. Pass side of the block casting numbers shows original CID.

Remind me later this evening and I'll check my 1974 Motors Manual.
ok,... thanks!!!!:thumbsup:
 

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Bill....According to my Direct Connection racing manual, the 361-383-400 "B" engines can be identified by the cubic inches stamped on the right side of the block deck adjacent to the distributor.....The 413-426W-440 "RB" engines can be identified by the engine size stamped on a pad at the left front of the engine adjacent to the front tappet rail....The 440 would have block casting number: PN3698828.....The 68-70 383-440 would have a head casting number of: 2843906....A true 440-6 would have a heavy duty forged crank with a specially balanced damper (PN3512017)....Let me know what numbers you find on the block and heads.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
ron, so are the numbers i need on the drivers side down by the pan??..thanks..
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I can't remember exactly where it is....Just look for a 7 digit number.
got it ,im going back over tonite to check it out again!..ill post them when i get them:beers:
 

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From the book (1974 Motors Manual) Left side rear of block near oil pan flange.
Engines are identified by CID and prefixed by letters PM or PT.

440-3X2, 390 HP, 490 ft/lbs torque,10.5:1 CR,
Need distributor number for point setting, dual point set, and timing, 5° BTDC, 14.2:1 air/fuel ratio.
 

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thanks Everett, the car has a msd billet dist and a 6 al box..he was sick last night have to try again tonite!!..
 

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Discussion Starter #18
ron ,the guy has been sick, i was suppose to go back over tonite,but it looks like im gonna wait till sat..but im bringing the camera for you guys to do a lil photo shoot...
 

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ron ,the guy has been sick, i was suppose to go back over tonite,but it looks like im gonna wait till sat..but im bringing the camera for you guys to do a lil photo shoot...


I am a 440+6 owner, following is some info on getting to know the car better, info pertains only if its an original 440+6, if its a clone it could have been built many ways.

If its a original 440+6 the 5th digit in the vin number will be a V, if anything else its a clone.

Vin will read as follows:
rm23v : for a hardtop
rm21v : for a post car

Base model road runner had a 383 ( fifth digit in vin will be a N), 440+6 and 426 hemi were optional engines, original 440+6 and hemi road runners are very rare and highly desireable. A 1970 440+6 road runner is close to $100 k if properly restored


Personnally the Demon carbs were a bad move, original Holleys work perfect when properly tuned.

I have no experience with Demons, but if they are mechanical 6 bbl setup, they are a waist of time, Holley also makes mechanical 6 bbl and no one uses them as they are not made for the street, 6bbl ned to be vacuum operated

He should consider re-installing his Holleys, if they are in need of a rebuild, have them done by Promax http://promaxcarbs.bizland.com/, they are the best.

best trick with Holley 3x2 is to keep them stock, other the replacing the outboard metering plates for jet plates.

Same as a conventionnal 4bbl Holley, They can be fine tuned with the jets, outboard springs, power valve, acc. pump and cams.
Unless you are highly experienced, Do not drill the air bleeds!!

I was fortunate enough to talk with Ed Cook last summer about 6 pack tuning and his best advice was to keep the carbs stock, he as a 440+6 b-body that runs 10's on 1/4 mile with bias ply and manifolds ( he Races FAST class)

i set timing on mine at 18 initial and 34 full advance, you can also go to 36 if pistons are not Kb hypereutectic.

Distributor choice with a good timing curve is very critical on a 440+6, much more then a conventionnal engine,My distributor is mopar performance electronic with MSD 6al, i recommend him to have a modern electronic distributor.



Stock 440+6 camshafts( 450ish lift) were pretty small but compression was 10 to 1.

All heads from Mopar ( 1969 to 1978)were junk, there are no better or bad heads ( unless he as 915 castings from 1967, which are closed chamber design).

rear end gear ratio was:
if automatic the car will have a 8 3/4 with a 3.23 or maybe(which i doubt) a 3.91, unless it as the track pack or super track pack option it could have a dana 60 with either 3,55 or 4.10

If 4 spd, it will have a dana 60 with either a 3.55 or 4.10.

You mention car as a 8 3/4 and 4spd, which sounds a red flag , either the 4spd is not original , someone removed the dana for a 8 3/4 or car is a clone.

A properly tuned Stock 440+6 road runner will do the 1/4 in the 13's, if slower, you have something wrong.
( i am doing low 12's @ 116 MPH, with only headers, 10.5 comp,home ported heads and small solid cam, not hooking up with radials).

I suggest to start with the basics( tune,timing,vacuum, fuel pressure) and try to find out cyl pressure, which heads, which cam.

Unless its a smog engine or a RV, camshaft cannot be too small.

Also check P/N on his original Holleys, they could be 340+6 carbs.


Assuming he as a 440:
All 440 blocks are equal, HP blocks were only bigger, rods,camshafts,intake,carb. Non Hp blocks were found in larger C-body cars, all B-body cars had the HP 440's.
The big rods could also be found in Rv's, industrial engines and trucks, they are much heavier then stock rods, very popular in the 70's and 80's most people today dont use them because of their weight.

From personnal experiences, the newer blocks found in Rv's and Trucks have thicker cylinder walls compared to early 440's ( 67 to 73), but they are exactly the same blocks except for extra block webbing( which is better).

In appearance, the 413,426(wedge) and 440(Rb engines) is wider then a 361,383,400 (b engines), make sure to check pad in front right of block( when standing in front of car), you should see 440. If her is no pad, then its a (B) block.

The intakes and distributor do not interchange between B and RB, otherwise everything is the same( heads, water pump, timing cover, camshaft,etc).

You can also check out www.moparts.com they have tech archives or subscribe(free) the technical forum as very knowledgeable members who are always willing to help with excellent advice.

Once you get to know the car better, it will be easier to tune the 440+6.
 
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