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Motorhead62 said:
WTF is right! The American people are being legally raped! Just my 2 cents worth! :sad:

1967 Chevelle - 468BB/TH400/12-bolt posi
1967 El Camino - 383SB/TH700R4/10-bolt
1967 C-10 short/wide - 462BB/TH400/12-bolt

The above cars belong to you. Two big blocks and a 383. Maybe not your daily drivers, but how can you complain about gas prices? Stop buying gas, and you won't be affected by gas prices. You have no "right" to cheap gas. Rape is done by force. Anyone buying gas is accepting the terms and conditions, which are clearly stated at the pump. Know what I mean.
 

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The answer to lower gas prices is less consumption as a nation. Since prices are generally driven by speculation on consumption, as we use less fuel, the price comes down. Do a search on national averages of fuel consumption vs. pricing for the same time frame and you will see what I'm saying. I'll use my homeowner analogy again...If there is way more homes on the market than people buying them, prices fall off a bit until more people start buying, then prices go up. Same with gas. If we all continue to use at the same rate, then the oil economists will keep the prices going upward, or 'what the market will bare'. It's really that simple...(still sucks that it has jumped so hi in such a short amount of time though)

Dano :beers:
 

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dawg said:
well lets all boycott the big oil companies?

thatll only be the way to send a message to the gasholes!
I am sure that will effective,,, Simply Supply and Demand fellows... :sad:
 

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Sure, I would love to expound on it.

The large corporate oil companies have put the independents out of business, this happened about a decade ago. Then they proceeded to shut down the independent refineries.

Now that has two dynamics that are articifically created:

1) The refinery shortage everyone refers to (due to the recent gulf coast hurricane events) puts a strain on our American economy because the lower number of refineries have a hard time keeping up with current demand.

2) The corporates now dominate the oil markets and can set the prices as they see fit, due the law of supply and demand (keep supplies low and prices go up).

When you have the power to regulate supply and demand you can increase your profit margin.

Now don't get me wrong, every business deserves to make a profit, that is capitalism at its finest, and the American way. But how much profit is justifiable and morally right?

Is it ethical to pull down the large by huge capital gains when so many other businesses do not? Is it ethical to have such profit in light of what has happened in our country lately with so much suffering?

The oil companies don't have the right to manipulate the "Law of Supply and Demand" with backing from the government.

I know we live in an imperfect world. Life is tough! This is still the greatest country in the world and I am grateful that I was born free!

I also dawn my uniform everyday, make my sacifices, and I proudly serve my country which I LOVE!

Great discussions are just that, GREAT!

Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion. :D
 

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Lets see how rich the share holders get being paid their ill gotten dividends

Exxon 2.1%
Chevron 3.1%
BP 3.2%
Sunoco 1.1%
Valero 0.4%
Haliburton 0.9%
Schlumberger 1.0%

This compares with three month risk free treasury bills currently paying a rate of 3.9%.

Now, the headlines express alarm that Exxon made 10 Billion dollars for the most recent three months. It makes good press because it sounds like a lot of money, but it's just sensationalism to attract angry viewers. Somehow the headlines didn't bother to mention that Exxon is a company currently valued at 352 Billion by shareholders.

Trying to put this in context, if you owned an auto body shop that cost you $352,000 (or that you could sell for $352,000), you might be pretty disappointed in a three month profit of $10,000.

If one is financially stretched, it is not really a wise choice to purchase a Suburban, make plans for owning a boat and that sort of thing. One should put their financial house in order before spending beyond minimum needs. Commuting to work is a necessity. Doing it in a huge vehicle isn't. For that matter, owning a dog and having lots of children are choices too that should be planned within one's financial means. Since two adults and two children fit an econo-box, I'm not buying this story.

It is absolutely correct that business is based on greed. That is the capitalistic system, like it or hate it. It is greed that motivates investment into ventures so enormous that no individual could undertake. Who here could drill a mile deep well and make their own fuel? The possiblity of making large profits drives investment and productivity. It is the collective resources of investors that makes it possible to produce gasoline, make computers, produce autos etc. These investments increase our standard of living. You know that's true because in this country we don't have shortages. You never see a bare shelf in the stores. In other countries, particulary before communism fell in the Soviet Union, those countries suffered shortages and lesser living standards.

During the Carter years, we had gasoline price controls. We also had long gas lines. I know, because I spent hours waiting in them. When profits turn to losses, production stops. Greed has to be satisfited if there is to be productivity. This time around, we have gasoline prices floating with demand through the suppy disruption. For the most part, gasoline has been readily available. Consumers cut back on their demand by driving less and prices have already declined. Consumers are finally interested in more efficient vehicles as well.

If profits are excessive in the oil industry over the long term, it will be temporary. Why? Because excessive profits will draw new investors into the business. When there are more companies producing, profits drop. When profits are inadequate, producers make less or exit the market. This is especially true when a producer must consume his limited resources to keep producing. Why sell the oil in the ground at low profit when it will be worth more in the future?

We are precariously balanced for the supply and demand for energy production. Refineries are running balls to the wall to keep up with consumption. New refineries have not been constructed in decades. Some refineries and some pipelines were knocked out of service from hurricane Katrina. Because there is no excess capablity in the system, this caused immediate shortages. This limited supply against a fixed demand. Demand must drop similarly or the price must rise until balance is achieved. Both things happened.

Rather than stomping one's feet and blathering about "windfall profits taxation" in the industry, we need to encourage investment so we become self sufficient as a country. We need to build energy production infrastructure in this country so that we don't rely on other nations. We also need adequate reserve capability to withstand weather or terrorist disruption. This is a matter of national security.

I don't like paying a lot more for gasoline, but I understand it and plan on it.

Gouging? Yeah, maybe some. Over the longer term there is no gouging. It is all supply and demand, econ 101.

Greed and selfishness? Absolutely. That is human nature.
 

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Some don't seem to get the point that no one is forced to buy gas. Ride a bike, take public transportation, there are other options. As others have stated, you can't be ripped off if you agree to the transaction before it occurs and got the correct product for the correct price you agreed upon; and you aren't being raped because you aren't being forced to buy the gas (see my first statement).
 

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Here's a few facts for you specifically regarding Exxon/Mobil since they were mentioned earlier. Look at the actual profit margin for the industry, including entire US Industry average, compared to the other industries. Seems like there are a lot of other companies that need to be complained about a little more in my opinion.

http://home.comcast.net/~clwilcox33/exxon.doc
 

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Motorhead62 said:
Sure, I would love to expound on it.

The large corporate oil companies have put the independents out of business, this happened about a decade ago. Then they proceeded to shut down the independent refineries.

Now that has two dynamics that are articifically created:

1) The refinery shortage everyone refers to (due to the recent gulf coast hurricane events) puts a strain on our American economy because the lower number of refineries have a hard time keeping up with current demand.

2) The corporates now dominate the oil markets and can set the prices as they see fit, due the law of supply and demand (keep supplies low and prices go up).

When you have the power to regulate supply and demand you can increase your profit margin.

Now don't get me wrong, every business deserves to make a profit, that is capitalism at its finest, and the American way. But how much profit is justifiable and morally right?

Is it ethical to pull down the large by huge capital gains when so many other businesses do not? Is it ethical to have such profit in light of what has happened in our country lately with so much suffering?

The oil companies don't have the right to manipulate the "Law of Supply and Demand" with backing from the government.

I know we live in an imperfect world. Life is tough! This is still the greatest country in the world and I am grateful that I was born free!

I also dawn my uniform everyday, make my sacifices, and I proudly serve my country which I LOVE!

Great discussions are just that, GREAT!

Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion. :D

I would respectfully disagree with the majority of your points, Actually many of the Independent oil companies have purchased leases and existing production facilities because the Larger companies cannot make a profit due to the over head. The smaller companies move in and can make and almost instantly turn profit. Plus the larger companies are more heavily scrutinized by the government agencies, as I work in this industry I can tell you this is a fact and not an opinion.

Now to your point, How much profit is justified and moral? Ask yourself that question if you had a business, how much profit would you want to make? Personally I am working to make as much money as I can for my wife and kids with the hopes of one day retiring. If I am given a pay raise, I happily accept it. Now ask you self, how many times have you gotten a raise, then complained to your buddies or family that is was not enough, What is enough? Remember that natural gas and oil is not a cheap business. The amount of money needed to buy the leases, exploration, production, shipping, refining and delivery to your local pump is huge. Sure the companies are making a profit and with that profit comes re-investment which is the life of a company.

Where is the cry to have Big Government lower the taxes you and I pay at the pump, take a good look at the amount per gallon we pay in taxes.

I respect your opinion and salute your service.. :thumbsup:
 

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expat_dude said:
take a good look at the amount per gallon we pay in taxes.

I respect your opinion and salute your service.. :thumbsup:
Around 44% give or take a couple % is pure taxes. Also, I'll give a crisp salute to your service as well.
 

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Comments to other posts:

I personally support SMALLER government but that is hardly the case these days.

I know that most of us indulge in a hobby that most other people in the world call exssesive American greed. I am guilty, but I work hard for what I have. Yes, I am additicted to muscle cars with BIG engines!

I also own 2 American made Saturns, a 2001 model L200 and a 1993 model SL1. I really like the the 2001 with the Ecotech 4-popper. I also love comfortable cars with modern options and great gas mileage.

I did not intend to throw any personal spears, I just commented on the original post in this thread. Face it, most of us will from time to time disagree on the way we see things.

I still think you guys are great and that this one of the greatest sites on the internet.

Yall have a great weekend ! ! ! ! :beers:
 

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tired68 - my example was not meaning to show what people should do but an example of what people actually do! Look around you next time you are out driving. How can you not buy that people are influenced by their neighbors and friends and what they percieve as living the American dream? Most participants on this site have a toy and should be financially secure in the basics but I would bet dollars to dimes some are in debt up to their necks and living on the edge, payday to payday. It's evident in the "I can't believe the cost" posts and the "forced to sell" posts that seem to be so popular here. Bottom line, people are not overly responsible when they get credit cards mailed to them and limits raised monthly by the ones they already have just for making payments on time.

It's a pipe dream to think that the average American can ever be counted on to manage investments and become selfsufficent and secure in their future. People are human and too influenced by "the dream" that is depicted every minute of the day by our media. You can't read the paper, watch TV, listen to the radio or go out in public without temptation. We are consumers by nature not investors and we are spoiled. There is no turning back at this point. The whole gulf coast thing is prime example why we just can't count on folks being selfsufficent. It's a shame it's that way but what goes on in peoples heads is different from one to the next and the poor often become withdrawn often turn to crime, lower to middle class often over extend their resources and those with money live the life others want and often over look reality as it is for everyone but their own class.

Tell the folks living through out the gulf coast the shelves are always stocked and see what response you get. Sure as a norm in the US we just have to walk around a market and fill our baskets but if you can't afford to it doesn't help knowing it's there. As for gas it's easy to say you are not forced to buy it but it's not that simple. If you don't buy the stuff you may have some alternatives. Not everyone lives in walking distance of their place of employment, Not every city has mass-transit. You just can't blink and change what has become someones lifestyle - burb gone, toyota hybrid in it's place, $100,000 in debt for TV's computers, appliances and a vacation 2 years ago gone, living a modist life and $100,000 in investments for a rainy day in it's place...

So anyway I don't have all the answers but I'm not about to stick my head in the sand and say the answer is a simple one like people need to take personal responsibility for themselves. I know that would work if everyone were just like the ones already doing it but they arn't and never will be. This is really touching on politics now and I don't want to have it get too political as it always goes bad when it does.

Gas company profits are way up, using net value and comparing profit to an auto body shop is apples and oranges. ConocoPhillips is showing a $2.68 per share profit in the quarter that just ended, that's 89% for the quarter.... The fact that the little guy is all but out of the picture in gas production and all this profit when refineries and oil facilities throught out the gulf were shut down or damaged really makes folks start to think. Nothing crooked may have ever taken place but it sure makes you think how is it coming to be that in the wake of the gulf coast disaster and the high prices why record profit? We have been told the cost of production and the cost per barrel are up and being passed on to us the consumer. If so where is the profit coming from? We are also being told in the global market we don't use enough anymore so the price has gone up. The Chinese are using more and more and the US is using less so how does that play in supply and demand? If we all drive Hummers that get 10 mpg will that make teh cost per gal go down?

I don't blame folks for being angry but as I said before it's the American Dream to light a cigar with ten dollar bills and we are all ultimatlly to blame for the state of things these days, gas prices being one of them.

Oh, by the way I have only one child but my truck (4 door) has 4 teenage passangers besides myself everyday so the size of the family has little to do with needing room in a vehicle. We really need to be more open to the rest of the folks around us and their needs and lifestyles before we dictate what is the best way for everyone...
 

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Great discussion.

It is hard not to believe that we are not getting gouged to some degree. One point I think should be mentioned is this. Would the oil co. profits be as high IF they were ALLOWED to SPEND their profits on exploration they could actually drill on and BUILD new refineries? Seems to me that it would take a lot of that profit and pump it back into the economy where it belongs. Oil companies are forced to not spend money as they see fit. How would you like it if someone told you that you were not allowed to buy something even though you had plenty of money to do so? Just think of the actual dollars generated into our economy if they could spend as they wished. There would hardly be an industry that would not benefit from the building of new oil rigs, refineries, exploration. It would also be a huge windfall for the government, because it would be collecting taxes from all the $$$ being spent.( not that I'm in favor of them spending more money...) That is what makes this country work. And thanks to all who serve in the military to keep us FREE. My family and I are truly grateful!

Now, I'm off to the car show because:

1. I can afford the gas

2. I live in a Free country

3. My wife says I can go!
 

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Discussion Starter #37 (Edited)
Wow, ask a simple question! I haven't checked this thread since I started it, holy smokes.

OK a few simple points.
1. I buy beer because I choose to.........I buy gas because I HAVE to. I don't have a choice. If I don't buy gas I can't go to work. Our country is very spread out. Many of us don't live where we can walk, ride a bike or ride the bus to work so we DO have to buy gas.

2. What we don't have to do is drive SUV's that guzzle, but we do anyway (me included). So that's a poor choice on our part, not the oil companies problem.

So they have a captive consumer base that MUST buy their product. And fortunatley for them most of us are dumb enough to drive inefficient vehicles that are fun to own and drive. I guess we learn the hard way and they make big profits. Hard as it is to swallow it's the american way. Sometimes free enterprise comes back to bite you in the a**.
 

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I choose to work 50 miles from my job. I choose to leave the camaros home and drive a 97 z24 to work. It gets 32 mpg and my camaros don't. I spend the same amount on gas per week as some of my coworkers who drive big suv's, but I travel a lot farther. They complain about gas prices, and I don't because I choose to live where I do. When they complain, I laugh at some of them because no one put a gun to their heads when they bought that vehicle. My parents raised my brother and I in a escort wagon and later on a taurus wagon. I'm pretty sure most people could make do with more fuel efficient vehicle, however, they like the convenience of a bigger vehicle and thats their choice. I just don't care to hear about how much they spend on gas.

I don't like how high the gas prices were, but I accept them. However gas co's are not the only ones who jack up the price. Anyone ever been to a ball game? I think $8.00 beers and $5.00 hotdogs are great prices. How many people sell there car for way more than its worth hoping someone bites? Like I said before, higher gas prices definitely affect my spending habbits, but I don't forgot that driving is not a right, its a privilege in this country.
 
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