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Ok, so how would YOU handle this?

2K views 31 replies 11 participants last post by  SooperDave 
#1 ·
Round one

A local engine builder put my 406 together in winter '08. I paid not only for assembly but dyno tune. Before I was able to break her in there was a small stud that got past the valve and caused damage to the piston and cylinder wall. (I am very careful and don't drop things into my engine but obviosuly its his word against mine.)

Round two

He sleeved the block and rebuilt the engine (hone, all new bearings, new rings for the one new piston in the sleeved cylinder).

This engine burns so much oil it's ridiculous. It's a smokey mess. Now she's moving oil out anywhere she can - breathers, dipstick tube, etc. I haven't done a leakdown test but I'm sure it would prove there's a huge amount of blowby.

I'm gonna call or show up there tomorrow and see how the convo goes. I doubt he'll offer anything but to take it back in and try round 3 (no effing way). Anyway, if he gives me the typical [fill in the blank bullcrap] how should I handle it?
 
#2 ·
Since you have already paid for this mill it's in your own interest to let the shop make it right. Your other option is you bought what you got! Since what you paid for was labor and parts there is no way they will give you a refund. I'm not siding with the shop, just looking at it from a least amount of loss for both sides.

I should have asked this first but what do you have in writing? Is there a warranty on the build? It sounds like the builder is a reasonable guy, he's as sure he didn't leave a bolt in the cyl as you are you didn't drop one down the intake, he could have wrote you off the first time and didn't...

Go talk it out and go from there!
 
#5 ·
I wouldn't use a motor built by him now. I paid two times for motors that never ran long enough for me to enjoy at all.

Oh for two is enough for me.

If he doesn't offer to refund half the money I'm just gonna tell him that I'll post the story on all the local internet boards and then take him to small claims for both jobs.
 
#9 ·
I paid two times for motors that never ran long enough for me to enjoy at all.
In your 1st post you were not clear about it. Do I now understand correctly, you paid for an engine, it was damaged and you paid more to have it fixed and it now smokes? If so I hope you at least split the cost of round 2.

With a bolt, stud or what ever it was in the cyl, how did the valves get adjusted and the dist installed? And like Bill mentioned, how did it get through dyno time?

You never did answer the questions I asked in my first reply... What were the conditions or agreement before the build started?
 
#6 ·
First off don,t go there pissed off remain calm at all times. If you feel that he will not make it wright take it to another shop and have it taken apart. Have them verifier all measurements. Pay the second shop for their time and pick it up. If you feel you have a claim take it to small claims court have all your info ready. Under no circumstance do not bad mouth the shop or tell the other shop who built it and do not post it all over then net.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Absolutely correct. The only thing I would add is let him know (after trying to work it out calmly) that he has left you no choice but to pay another reputable shop to tear it down and document everything for small claims court. I on the other hand I "would" warn others about this shop if it does not go your way, except you cannot "prove" it was him even if winning in small claims court so you have to use terminology that lets folks make a decision on facts alone. Words like allegedly, possibly, most likely, highly probable etc. are ones that can keep it from being messy.
 
#8 ·
Dave,
Anyone can make a mistake. I find it hard to believe that the engine ran on the dyno with a small stud in it that could fall into the cylinder, but you just never know.

As far as the oil problem goes, I think the first thing you need to do is ask him to tear it down and see what is causing it. Could be something very simple like an intake gasket. I would go there calmly and see what he says.

I am not ashamed to tell you that in 22 years of business, I have had an engine or two that needed a couple of tries to get it right. I have always fixed them with a smile. Give the guy a chance and see what he says.
 
#12 ·
He suggests I run a breather on one valve cover and an oil seperator on the other for the pcv. He says he's never built a motor that's come back with excessive oil getting past the rings. I'm also going to pull all the plugs tonight and do a compression test on all cylinders.
 
#13 ·
Dave do your compression test and a leak down test befor anything else. So your not running a PCV system.

You may be having the same problem im having with my PCV...

If you are running one then check to see if its sucking oil, you could also pull the carb if you dont want to run it and look down the intake runners for signs of oil. My motor is fresh BBC 498 and what i did as a test was run a clear fuel filter between the PCV hose and drove the heck out of it to find oil setting in the bottom of the filter, that would have been going in the carb and intake.

Yes it was a smoker and im still working on it as we speak but i think i got it now.
 
#14 ·
i spent a ton of cash on the 377 that i have in my '64 ChevyII... had quite a few issues with it before it was finally installed in the car.

long story, i won't get into it...

i'd say if you've lost faith in the builder to bite the bullet and find someone new to correct/fix it...
 
#15 ·
with the pcv hooked up it, a ton of oil goes thru the intake. plugs are oily/sooty and she smokes pretty bad, especially on start up. literally has burned thru QUARTS of oil and not even a couple hundred miles.

replacing the pcv with a 2nd breather (using a grommet with a slit in the bottom that acts as a baffle because no built in baffle on these valve covers) was a disaster. oil pushing out of the dipstick tube and onto the header. also the k&n oil and motor oil spit out of the 2nd breather. a total mess.

I'm almost at my wits end.
 
#16 ·
with the pcv hooked up it, a ton of oil goes threw the intake. plugs are oily/sooty and she smokes pretty bad, especially on start up. literally has burned threw QUARTS of oil and not even a couple hundred miles.

replacing the pcv with a 2nd breather (using a grommet with a slit in the bottom that acts as a baffle because no built in baffle on these valve covers) was a disaster. oil pushing out of the dipstick tube and onto the header. also the k&n oil and motor oil spit out of the 2nd breather. a total mess.

I'm almost at my wits end.
OK so its most likely oil in the intake runners that take awhile to burn off even if you pug off the PCV the oil will take time to burn off... What you can do is custom make a baffle and or use a foam in the rubber baffles to help eliminate the sucking of oil... I was note successful with that as my motor was pushing oil out of my K&N breathers and pushing the dipstick up.

So for a test just hook up your PCV with a ristricter in the line that only allows a 1/8 hole and try the foam as well. It still needs to suck enough to burn off any contaminates in the block.

But if its as bad as mine was it took the oil a long time to burn off the intake runners and i went threw 4 set of plugs befor Dennis DjD helped me figure it out and run billet breathers and then i called my builder becuase its still sucking a little oil and he said the just restrict it but to still use the PCV system.
 
#20 ·
. oil pushing out of the dipstick tube and onto the header. .
Dave,
If it is pushing oil out of the dip stick tube, then something else is wrong other than your pcv valve. If you run the engine without the breathers in the valve covers, can you feel a lot of air coming out of the breather holes when you rev the engine ?? If so, it has too much blowby and something is wrong.

How far from you is the engine builder ?? Why not drive the car to him and let him take a look ? He might see something you are missing. If not, at least he will see the problem in person and help you figure out what to do about it.
 
#24 ·
I had a similar problem with an engine I built. Pushing oil out the breathers, front and rear crank seals, vc gaskets. Got worse and worse. I finally did a leakdown and it was really bad. Upon tearing the motor apart I found out that the piston rings that came in the kit (balanced rotating assy) that were supposed to be 5/64" were actually 1/16" !
I did not check ring side clearance when I put the thing together because it was all new stuff. Big mistake. All but two of the top rings came out in pieces. Got lucky and no major cylinder or piston damage. Machine shop did a light clean up hone, I got the correct rings and was good to go.
 
#25 ·
I put in the oil separator in the pass side valve cover, then short hose to the pcv and a smaller hose from the pcv to the carb spacer. I put the k&n breather into the driver side vc. Started her up this morning and no smoke until she warmerd up and then for maybe 10 min there was some smoke - but not quite as bad, I think/hope residual oil in the headers and exhaust needed to burn off.

Went for a 10-15 min ride and the smoke eventually went away. Came home and let her idle in the driveway- no smoke and no pushing oil out. Dry as a bone. Pulled #2 plug and looked pretty good - no more oily/soot. I'll picked up new plugs and will change them all.

Anyway, there is clearly excessive blowby and IMO this is not what you'd expect from a naturally aspirated motor so I'm still dissappointed we need to do this type of stop gap. I'm still gonna do a leakdown test to see how bad it is.

Thanks for all the input and for calming me down!!
 
#26 ·
I put in the oil separator in the pass side valve cover, then short hose to the pcv and a smaller hose from the pcv to the carb spacer. I put the k&n breather into the driver side vc. Started her up this morning and no smoke until she warmerd up and then for maybe 10 min there was some smoke - but not quite as bad, I think/hope residual oil in the headers and exhaust needed to burn off.

Went for a 10-15 min ride and the smoke eventually went away. Came home and let her idle in the driveway- no smoke and no pushing oil out. Dry as a bone. Pulled #2 plug and looked pretty good - no more oily/soot. I'll picked up new plugs and will change them all.

Anyway, there is clearly excessive blowby and IMO this is not what you'd expect from a naturally aspirated motor so I'm still dissappointed we need to do this type of stop gap. I'm still gonna do a leakdown test to see how bad it is.

Thanks for all the input and for calming me down!!
Well it sounds like your making progress... I would do the leak down test and like Bill said take off the breathers and put your hand over the hole in the valve cover, bring the rpm's up and feel if its pushing air out of the valve covers.

My problem and may still be yours, is that either when i drilled the holes in my valve cover its right above my roller rockers and with good oil pressure its just squirting right up on the baffle.

But now the leak down will help eliminate the worst we hope and if there is a problem with the leak down test you can bring the car to him and physically show him.
 
#27 ·
Dave i just talk to my motor guy and he quotes " Make sure your valve cover baffle holes are not over the rockers, and if you have to much crank pressure & not running a PCV system then yes it will blow oil out the breathers and blow the dipstick up to a certain exstent"...

If you have blowby then you should see the breathers smoking a good amount not a small amount of smoke... What he said that i will try is to run my PCV on my driver side up front and my breather in the rear of the passenger side.
 
#30 ·
I pulled all the plugs and they all look normal now except #7 which was a little on the dark/sooty side. I changed that one and put the others back in. I'm gonna drive it for now and keep an eye on it.
 
#31 ·
OK at least do a compression check and with the #7 make sure its firing, a bad spark plug wire hopefully. But now this #7 is a good indication of the problem or it was just fouled from oil running down the intake at best.... I'm just thinking positive here so i hope it is something like a PCV system problem like we are trouble shooting... Still doesn't rule out what Bill has said about the compression rings.
 
#32 ·
So last night I started her up and it was steady smoke at idle until she warmed up and I left my driveway. Went for a 20+ minute drive and stopped to idle a few times. No smoke on the cruise or on those few stops. Checked the oil when I got back and it doesn't look like I burned any. The #2 plug looked normal (didn't have time to check them all).
 
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