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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here's the deal. In front of you are 2 identical 69 Z/28s. One has the original engine block and the other has a replacement that was restamped to look like the original.

There condition is good, driver quality, everything works.

Let's say the original car is valued at $40,000. What is the restamp block car worth?

Some background on why I ask this is in Tag Team - 'pad stamp'.
 

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I have a Van Nuys Z with a Norwood DZ in it and I figure it to be worth 30-35K in todays market.
 

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I have a Van Nuys Z with a Norwood DZ in it and I figure it to be worth 30-35K in todays market.

I would tend to agree that the car IMO with the restamp would be worth $10K less than a Z with an original DZ motor.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi,

The restamp car has correct components, only the original block was changed. The replacement block is correct cast and date. You're saying the block is worth $10k ?

So $30k for the correct cast and date nom car.
 

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Hi,

The restamp car has correct components, only the original block was changed. The replacement block is correct cast and date. You're saying the block is worth $10k ?

So $30k for the correct cast and date nom car.
A restamp is a replacement engine..........Ther can only be one original engine.

Think about this for a min. Why do you think cloned Z's with restamped (passed off as original) engines are such a problem? Becuase they bring bigger bucks to the table.
 

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An original DZ block just sold on Ebay for $4600 so yea it could ad $10K to the price of the car.
Was this block only? If so add more $$$$ for finding correct heads, manifold, heads,etc.
 

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just to add my two cents in, i believe a restamped motor in a 69 z reduces the value at least $10000.00. like mentioned above you can only have the original engine once. i also get quite sick as more and more restamped cars and parts are being put out there and worst of all accepted as ok. another words if its a restamp, but i can afford it its ok. or a clone z or Ls6 chevelle, great lets pay too much money for it.Its not quite true yet and Its too bad, but in the end the clones will drag down the prices of the real cars. that you can take to the bank sorry to say. great site and thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #10
To clarify, the restamp block car is a real Z in which the CE block was worn out. These cars are nearly 40 years old and we have to address this issue. We all know CE's were warranty replacements. What do we do when these CE's wear out?

In this scenario, the owner found a date and cast correct block and transferred the components.

Secondly, if the owner of this car represented it as a 'numbers matching original' is it fraud?
 

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Secondly, if the owner of this car represented it as a 'numbers matching original' is it fraud?[/QUOTE]

Since the owner knows it is a restamped block, if he tries to sell it as numbers matching, yes, that would be fraud.
 

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Technically, a "restoration" block is "numbers matching." But it is not the original/born-with/(phrase-of-the-month) engine.

Some prefer a "restoration" block rather than an incorrectly dated/VIN'd or CE.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks Brian,

I was pretty sure this community would feel strongly that anything but the 'born with' block would disqualify a car from being matching.

Interestingly, I ran this scenario past a collector car dealer today. He told me the restamp car was still matching because the cast number, date, and components are correct. He further claimed that at a particular collector car auction (swarming with dealers) it would be perfectly OK to designate it as numbers matching. Also, he informed me that restamp blocks are still numbers matching, they are everywhere, everyone does it, and it is acceptable. Furthermore, if you want to know if a car has the 'born with' or 'original' anything, you must specifically ask that.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
restoration block - what is that exactly.
 

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restoration block is pretty much one that has been re-stamped, from my understanding.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
wow,

one says anything but original is not matching.

another says a 'restoration block' ( I LOVE that):hurray: is still matching.

I think I need a drink.
 

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Secondly, if the owner of this car represented it as a 'numbers matching original' is it fraud?
Big D,
"Numbers matching", technically yes it is IMHO. "Original", from what you have been since told, absolutley not.

Doug
 

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Hile you are sorting all this out in your mind with the aid of a beverage, you may want to read through the thread below. We have a member here by the name of Bryan Shook (elcamino72) who is an attorney that is tyring to help with these cases. If you read through the thread below, it's pretty clear that his legal opinion is that, yes, a restamp (no matter how good) represented as "original, numbers matching" (my non-legal professional opinion is that there is some wiggle room in "numbers matching" unless it is claimed to be "original" or as Dave said "born with", and it might be enough of a loophole to let someone slip through) is a fraud.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88291&highlight=fraud
 

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Discussion Starter #19
thanks guys,

I messaged Mr. Shook a couple days ago.

The heading in the car description was

'1969 Z/28 CAMARO NUMBER MATCHING DZ 302 ORIGINAL'

Unmolested was mentioned twice. He described the engine with

'DZ302 engine - cast number3956618, casting date code B79, VIN 19L524XXX, engine code V0210DZ, 1178 crank, 492 heads, etc,etc.

The VIN on the engine matches the car. There is nothing in the description to indicate to me it is on its 3rd block.

A prior owner indicated this is a block he found at a machine shop, had it restamped, and provided it as a spare. The car had the CE block in it at that time.

The man I got the car from emailed me this week. He told me he had the components from the CE block transferred to the new rebuilt block and this is the engine that was in the car when he sold it to me.

The car is described as original in the heading - but the word original is not used in the engine description specifically. The only time original is used again is describing the carb.
 

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thanks guys,

'1969 Z/28 CAMARO NUMBER MATCHING DZ 302 ORIGINAL'
That is false advertising IMHO. The block is not original. The heads are not original.

492 heads are not correct for the '69 302. They came with 186 heads.

You might want to check the dist., alt., carb., etc., for originality. These are high dollar items if your going to look for originals.......

Doug
 
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